These changes are only applicable to users in the EEA. For those outside the region, Windows will continue to function as it is!

The changes to Windows for DMA-compliance include:

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    • barsoap@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      Useful fact: Both Ireland and Malta have English as official languages so you’re guaranteed availability of those locales (unlike say en-DE, which exists, (at least according to ICU), while en-FR doesn’t).

      Fun fact: Both don’t have it as sole official language, though, and each EU member only gets to nominate one of their official languages as an official language of the EU, which means that with Brexit English ceased to be an official EU language. The commission manoeuvred around that though and still kept it as working language. With the Brits out of the picture though they’re not writing passive-aggressive memos regarding language use any more and the Irish certainly will not stoop down to that level, Euro-English can finally evolve freely and within ten years we’ll start telling Anglophones that it’s incorrect to say “there were five people at the party” (you attended), it’s “we were five people at the party”. Deal with it.

      • antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        4 months ago

        I’ve read about Euro-English and discussed it back on reddit quite some time ago, and I have to say I’m very skeptical whether such a thing exists or ever could exist. Fundamentally it’s a mis-learned standard English, and the mis-learning is to a large degree determined by the speaker’s native language - which varies extremely across Europe. Slavic speakers will have issues with articles, Germans much less so, etc. Consequently there’s hardly any definite characteristic of Euro-English (the examples in the article are too vaguely described, and I’m sure many European ESLs would find them grammatically unacceptable too). Perhaps one could speak of a variety of English used by EU politicians and institutions, but those people are hardly a linguistic model for the vast majority of other speakers.

          • antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            4 months ago

            The sort of English you’ll see in literature, newspapers, any remotely formal communication, in grammars (which learning materials are based on as well). The stuff learners will aim to learn.

            Differences between US and UK English, and the dialectal variety within each of them, are not all that relevant here. Where I live, students are taught British English, but no professor ever chastised us for using American pronunciation or vocabulary. Both are within the range of what natives will find acceptable.

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          4 months ago

          the examples in the article are too vaguely described, and I’m sure many European ESLs would find them grammatically unacceptable too

          I wouldn’t ever drop the s for he/she/it but the rest is perfectly cromulent. Remember these aren’t high school mistakes they’re stuff that C2 speakers use, practically native-level “mistakes”, just as you’ll see American generals writing reports using “less” instead of “fewer”, or “good” instead of “well”, or “who” instead of “whom” (shudder). “was” instead of “were”. That’s language evolution, plain and simple, things change as they always have and the language does different things in different places.

          • antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            4 months ago

            but the rest is perfectly cromulent

            “Competences”, “planification”, “to hop over” (=to refrain from)? Sorry, that stuff is downright grotesque.

            Remember these aren’t high school mistakes they’re stuff that C2 speakers use

            I can’t remember that because the WP article didn’t claim that. In fact, if you make these mistakes, you’re not C2, by definition.

            just as you’ll see American generals writing reports using “less” instead of “fewer”, or “good” instead of “well”, or “who” instead of “whom” (shudder). “was” instead of “were”.

            Except that this is language change from within the native community, in their native language, aimed from native speakers at other natives who will understand or (if they don’t understand them or use a different variety) correct them. Some of that stuff (who-whom, was-were) is well-established in already existing usage and dialects, it’s not an innovation at all.

            That’s language evolution, plain and simple, things change as they always have and the language does different things in different places.

            I’ll repeat myself: no, this isn’t ordinary language change, as this “Euro English” is simply a local characteristic of this or that speaker who failed to learn English as it is used by native speakers. ‘Euro English’ is not a real unit, as it has no defining characteristics. Imagine a European using some calque from his native language while talking to a European who has a different native language and who can’t understand the calque - this is not what happens in a normal speech community, these people will fail to understand each other, and their English is not a stable or reliably identifiable linguistic variety. You can see that especially in the table with “Euro English vocabulary”, where words are clearly marked by their origin, and they won’t be understood or will be found absurd by many other Europeans.

            • barsoap@lemm.ee
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              4 months ago

              “Competences”, “planification”, “to hop over” (=to refrain from)? Sorry, that stuff is downright grotesque.

              So, I have heard, is Indians using “doing the needful”. Native English speakers using that phrase, mind you. People also get their underwear in a twist over “aks” which, as a variant, goes back to at least Old English. It may go back further but we don’t have written evidence for Proto-West-Germanic so it’s impossible to tell.

              Except that this is language change from within the native community,

              To call the one evolution and the other mistake you need to do better than “one group learned the language at an earlier age”, as a linguist making that claim you’d have to demonstrate that both sets of changes follow fundamentally different laws, or one side follows laws, the other doesn’t.

              And, FWIW, I have lost count how often people assumed I’m a native English speaker. Even Brits managed to pin my accent to their east coast, which isn’t terribly wrong but still on the wrong side of the North Sea. And I didn’t even start to learn the language that early, only starting at age 10 or so nowadays kids are starting at 6.

              and who can’t understand the calque

              Oh. That’s a nice one. Find me a European language where “flea market” doesn’t translate properly. Also Euro English doesn’t always use calques, e.g. Spitzenkandidat didn’t get turned into point candidate but even if it did it’d be perfectly cromulent as it matches English “to take point”. The translation “lead candidate”, I think, comes from Anglophones. It’s not terribly precise, semantically speaking. They’re not leaders as-such, they’re spear tips thrust by their party.

              European languages have been in intense contact with each other for time immemorial there’s plenty of common structure underneath the differences, even among those that aren’t descendants of PIE. Flea market, for example, works in Hungarian and Finnish. As said: Find me a language where it isn’t understood.

              English elsewhere is losing “whom” because monolingual native speakers by and large seem to be incapable of understanding the difference even if you point out to them that they’re using “he” vs. “him” all the time. If your native language is a romance one you might be in a similar boat, if it’s Slavic or Germanic, most of which retain a lot more case structure than English, it’s dead obvious and not using “whom” sounds plain wrong. The evolutionary inertia thus has a different direction, doesn’t mean that it’s not following proper evolutionary laws, that it’s a mistake to bat an eye on the overuse of “who”.

              • antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                4 months ago

                So, I have heard, is Indians using “doing the needful”. Native English speakers using that phrase, mind you. People also get their underwear in a twist over “aks” which, as a variant, goes back to at least Old English.

                You’re mixing up different topics here. Indians are native speakers, if I’m not mistaken, they’ve learned that phrase from other Indian English speakers and they use it among themselves with no problem. Same as “aks”. These are definitely legitimate varieties, acceptable within those communities, regardless of what outsiders may say.

                Where is the community of speakers that finds all these “Euro English” forms acceptable? I’m evidently not a part of that community, because I don’t talk as that article describes.

                To call the one evolution and the other mistake you need to do better than “one group learned the language at an earlier age”, as a linguist making that claim you’d have to demonstrate that both sets of changes follow fundamentally different laws, or one side follows laws, the other doesn’t.

                Well that’s very much the point, exactly, Euro English doesn’t follow any laws in particular. To reduce the problem to the age of learning is bordering on deliberate misunderstanding. Native English speakers learn to not use “whom” from their parents and their surroundings, they get by without using it, and the linguistic phenomenon is self-sustaining. Non-natives in Europe learn English from their teachers, who (should) have a close-to-native grasp of language, and from native speaker content that they’re exposed to regularly (especially the younger generations, who can spend hours communicating with natives directly through voice chat). Deviations from the models (teachers and natives) are not created through communication with other European non-natives. With the people from your own country, you speak in your native language, and you use English for the rest of the world, regardless of whether the speaker on the other end is European, Asian, African, or anything else, and their influence won’t be systematic. Deviations from the native model are always a result of the native language (again, we’re talking about dozens of native languages, resulting in completely unrelated sorts of deviations), and they are not nearly as hard-coded as the native language; the speaker, if made aware of his mistakes, will try to correct them, at least when it comes to grammar (pronunciation being especially difficult to master).

                I would definitely expect a linguist describing a language variety to, to express it more visually, draw a Venn diagram with the characteristics of that variety that the speakers use, and to figure out some common ground, some defining and typical characteristics. If there is no common ground, and I firmly believe there none for the supposed Euro English, then we might at best talk about multipe varieties, and not one single meaningful unit. Like, do you and me count as speakers of Euro English? Do Russians and French count, including those I’ve heard speaking English so bad I had to ask them to switch to their native language so I could understand them? Does my sister count, who chats with Americans, Europeans and Asians on the regular through Discord? Do the European politicians, with their awkward pronunciation and annoying jargon? These are some very different Englishes, with nothing in common with regards to pronunciation, and, I believe, also nothing with regards to grammar. The WP explicitly narrows it down to “EU staff, expatriates and migrants from EU countries, young international travellers (such as exchange students in the EU’s Erasmus programme) and European diplomats with a lower proficiency in the language”, which is somewhat acceptable, maybe, except I doubt these groups have actually been studied systematically and compared within themselves and against other Europeans’ Englishes.

                This is the crux of the issue, basically. To speak of something, you need a definition of it. There’s no differentia specifica here, these people do not seem to form a community, and their language has no distinct characteristics or rules (stuff that tells you “me likes to eating cake” is not proper English - to describe a linguistic variety/dialect/language, it is necessary to be able to describe correct and incorrect sentences in it).

                Find me a European language where “flea market” doesn’t translate properly.

                You mean as a calque? Without digging around much: my native Croatian (buvljak), and Russian (baraholka). In Croatian the word actually is etymologically related to the word for ‘flea’, but I didn’t even notice that it’s connected until you asked this, as it underwent a sound change that’s rare in Croatian (buha > buva). It also lacks the “market” element. The calque would sound very different and would be incomprehensible. The Russian word can be etymologically explained as “the place for selling old/worthless objects”.

                European languages have been in intense contact with each other for time immemorial there’s plenty of common structure underneath the differences

                An occasional term that’s been translated across several languages is hardly an element of common structure. The languages are varied enough not to be conductive to creating a remotely uniform Euro English.

                English elsewhere is losing “whom” because monolingual native speakers by and large seem to be incapable of understanding the difference even if you point out to them that they’re using “he” vs. “him” all the time. If your native language is a romance one you might be in a similar boat, if it’s Slavic or Germanic, most of which retain a lot more case structure than English, it’s dead obvious and not using “whom” sounds plain wrong.

                My native language is Slavic and I absolutely do not find the who-whom>who-who an issue, as I learned English from native speaker material (texts, mainly) and decent enough teachers who themselves follow native speakers, rather than applying the Slavic case structure to English. Perhaps I’m more inclined to using ‘whom’ than the average native, but even then I don’t use it systematically (maybe I barely use it at all, really, it’s hard to tell).

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                  4 months ago

                  Where is the community of speakers that finds all these “Euro English” forms acceptable?
                  With the people from your own country, you speak in your native language, and you use English for the rest of the world, regardless of whether the speaker on the other end is European, Asian, African, or anything else

                  In Europe. English is the Lingua Franca, if you have a Danish plumber talking to a French electrician on an Italian building site it’s going to be in English. The examples though are mostly from Brussels, which also explains why there’s so many administrative terms in there.

                  And, true, English is an international Lingua Franca. We have a lot more contact with other Europeans than with, say, Japanese, though, and also way more shared history with it.

                  except I doubt these groups have actually been studied systematically and compared within themselves and against other Europeans’ Englishes.

                  Have you tried to address that doubt by doing a literature review, there’s studies going back to at least 2000. Also that’s not how you use the plural of English, or do you mean that each of them speak multiple varieties? Going out on a limb, the Slavic languages are quite steadfast indeed when it comes to number agreement across cases. Are you speaking Slavo-English? If another linguistic group doesn’t mind that kind of construction and adopts it, might that constitute Euro-English?

                  • antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    4 months ago

                    if you have a Danish plumber talking to a French electrician on an Italian building site it’s going to be in English

                    As you can notice, this is not in line with the definition found on Wikipedia. Also, an Italian building site is linguistically clearly not relevant.

                    Would the community and the variety of English it uses would be any different if instead of a French electrician you had a Turkish or Nepalese one? Because that’s a way more likely situation.

                    Have you tried to address that doubt by doing a literature review, there’s studies going back to at least 2000

                    Well, I’ve just read one of the articles used as a reference on WP. It’s based on a survey among 65 Erasmus students (not a very wide sample, as the study itself admits), and doesn’t sound terribly convinced: https://hrcak.srce.hr/en/clanak/135148 - finding only a few characteristics to be markers of potential “Euro-English” (and, interestingly enough, noting that some of them appear to be arising or at least acceptable in native English too). If you have read something more convincing and systematic than the WP article, feel free to forward it to me.

                    Also that’s not how you use the plural of English, or do you mean that each of them speak multiple varieties?

                    Um, have you done a literature review? Yes, that’s what “Englishes” is supposed to mean, roughly speaking, it’s a commonplace term at this point and it’s odd you haven’t heard of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Englishes

                    Going out on a limb, the Slavic languages are quite steadfast indeed when it comes to number agreement across cases.

                    I’m not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand. There are next to no cases here, we’re talking in English.

                    Are you speaking Slavo-English?

                    Do I sound like I speak it? Are there any “Slavo-English” characteristics to my writing that you notice? Pluralising a language name is an odd thing in Slavic languages too (and especially difficult in my native language, due to the same case-number suffix in Nom.sg and Nom.pl), if that’s what you’re aiming for. I used it because it’s already used in English by native speakers.

                    You do know you’re not supposed to just slap an [area/language family] prefixoid onto “English” and call it a day? There is no Slavo-English just because you call it that way, Slavic languages do have similarities that result in similarly mis-learned English, but that doesn’t make them all a distinct variety of English, and there remains a number of curious dissimilarities among them (as I’ve noticed while talking with other native Slavic speakers in English).

                    If another linguistic group doesn’t mind that kind of construction and adopts it, might that constitute Euro-English?

                    (Assuming we’re talking about the dubiously grammatical “Englishes” here, which you ascribe to Slavic influence - which is incorrect but I’ll ignore that for the sake of the argument.) Probably, though there would probably have to be more than one single grammatical phenomenon that gets widely adopted if you want to speak of a full-blown linguistic variety. But it’s all pointless to discuss. In practice, it definitely wouldn’t go down as you describe. The linguistic group that adopts the construction should be all or most of Europe, going by the name. And that’s not very likely to happen, because many speakers would barely be exposed to it at all (do you really think many Frenchmen and Germans hear Slavs speaking English?), and if they heard it they’d immediately notice the form is odd, not in line either with English as they were taught, as they might be inclined to speak due to their native language, or in line with what they hear of English in general, and thus they would reject it. It’s a bit like the “would you still love me if I were a worm” sort of question.

      • HotBeef@feddit.uk
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        4 months ago

        That is most definitely not a fun fact. It’s bad enough having the Yanks telling us how to speak our own language!