You’re lying about the authors conclusions. They explicitly stated that the support was higher than 65% due to their methodology. And they did clearly state that preference falsification is a mere ~10%. Therefore their research (like any quantitative research on this topic) supports my statement that the majority of russians are genocidal imperialists as they want to conquer Ukraine and destroy Ukrainian identity.
No, they need to learn the Latvian language at a high level if they want to live there. This is basic component of calling a place your home. You have to some loyalty to your country and not support a genocidal enemy. The fact that russian culture is at least on some level defined by genocidal imperialism is not a problem of the Latvians. This is basic stuff.
Ukraine is not your home. You are a russian, no Ukrainian would try to come up with “war is necessity” word salad or your comical “russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now”. So don’t lie!
You don’t care about borders because you don’t care about the ten of thousands of civilians in russian torture dungeons. We also both know that vast majority of russians are not interested in any kind of real peace. Just like in 2014, the goal is to get some breathing room, then attacks and try and get more territory and exterminate Ukrainian culture in the newly occupied territories. This approach is nearly universally known and (silently) supported by a strong majority of russians.
GTFO with your “on my people”. You defend russian imperialism and colonialism and you dare to imply you have some relation to Ukraine?
Victimhood is a defining element of russian culture. Without it there is no russian “culture”. Conspiracy theories blaming foreign countries for any and all ills are extremely prevalent in russian society. This has been true in the past, this is true today and it will be true in the future.
I don’t understand what you mean by your “punisher” sentence. The vast majority russians already blame everyone but themselves for all their problems. You brought up russophobia as an implicit excuse for russian crimes. Russophobia doesn’t really exist. When a society consist of a strong majority of genocidal imperialists that lack empathy, it is reasonable to see that society as a threat and a problem. This is not rocket science.
Have you ever seen a well known russian (outside a few figures like Novodvorskaya) admit that at least part of the problem lies in russian society at large? I think not … because we both know the role of victimhood among russians.
To develop a russia strategy that works, the world needs to understand that russians will never act in good faith, russians will always play the victim and a strong majority of russians are committed and genuine ethno-racial supremacists that lack empathy.
Alienating russians is a red herring. The only way forward is a sober view of russian culture and methods and an understanding that russia only understand force; you have to treat them like they treat others.
Even if that were true (which is not, read the damn conclusions section), this doesn’t support your emotional notion. And as much as I’d like to share such a simple outrage, it’s not helpful.
It would be weird to see all Russians born in Latvia only support Latvian side of things, just as it would be weird to see each and every Latvian born in Russia supporting Russia.
I never said I see war as necessary, I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone. I personally am anti-war and I call for peace through whatever means necessary, because - surprise surprise - I care about people’s lives and you seemingly don’t. It is curently you who calls for brute force solutions.
And you trying to say my ethnicity is not valid is laughable. Oh yeah, gonna be unborn to my Ukrainian father and forget my entire Ukrainian bloodline. Maybe your cultural shock at facing a Ukrainian who doesn’t immediately call to destroy all Russians is your problem? Then go around and maybe talk to some outside political circlejerks.
Russian culture is independent and beautiful, not defined by anything in particular - just as Ukrainian. You trying to minimize it to “victimhood” or even politics more broadly is an insult to everything good the country has produced - and there is plenty.
The perfect scenario I see is peace talks, and then Ukraine joining NATO. There are talks on the NATO side, but they require Ukraine to leave the current war first. I do think this is the best way forward, as Russian security guarantees are proven not to be trusted.
Seeing any national or ethnic group as “inherently dangerous” is nothing but a way to more abuse, and a common justification for imperialist wars, too. There is no such society in Russia, and seeing it this way is an issue of your perception. But regardless, make peace talks and then invite Ukraine to NATO. Problem solved.
This is just one survey you can look multiple other (different provider, different methodologies) and they show the same thing. Bold of you to call me emotional when you’re approach to any and all research (or even history for that matter) is “it’s not valid if it doesn’t show russians in a good light”.
They are not really Latvian if they support Latvia’s enemies, are they? This is not a complex topic, if you don’t support the country, don’t want to learn the language, don’t care for the culture, then you can’t call the country your home.
I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone.
The goal and the outcome of the war and occupation of Ukrainian territories. Preference falsification goes both ways. This is not some sort of secret information; the individuals know full well that Ukrainian are brutally prosecuted in the occupied territories and they support it. That is why they are genocidal imperialists.
Never denied your ethnic background. I said you are not Ukrainian; not all Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian (one example would be Crimean Tartars). You don’t speak Ukrainian, you don’t live in Ukraine, you openly white-wash russian genocidal imperialism, you support settler colonialism in the Baltic nations (literally saying the Latvia must tolerate individuals that openly oppose Latvian statehood and want to turn Latvia into an authoritarian hellhole).
I brought up victimhood because revanchism and victimhood are defining features of russian culture. It doesn’t have to be that way, but that is the choice russians make. Going back to my previous post, show me one example where a public figure (not Novodvorskaya or Kasprov) admitted that at least some of russia’s trouble are the cause of russians themselves and they need to take responsibility for their actions. Since you claim that victimhood is not a defining element of russian society/culture, this should be easy.
I am not going to speculate on future developments. One thing I will say is I would never trust any russian who talks about “peace”.
I believe I explicitly stated that I don’t believe that russians are “inherently imperialist”. I do believe that this a choice that they make and that we should treat them as adults.
Earlier in this thread someone (was it you?) claimed that russians have no access independent non-state media. I pointed out that this was false and that every russian with a smartphone has had uncensored access to youtube (until this summer) and that major reliable news agencies have had russian language service on YT since ~2010. The point being is that the broad alignment of a strong majority of russian society with state propaganda is a choice! And russians need to take responsibility for it.
You mentioned helpful. Let me flip this around a bit. How has your approach (“russians are defacto completely innocent and you’re just spreading hate!”) been helpful to your own country?
What has your “opposition” achieved in the past 15 years? I will note that they have largely maintained a chauvinistic posture - e.g. support the annexation of Crimea. How will everyone (Ukrainians? the west?) being “helpful” (as defined by you) impact anything in Russia?
No, I just highlight that the research you provided doesn’t say what you want it to say. And I can’t really find many articles that confirm your notion.
You can call the country your home if you constantly live and/or were born there. Quite straightforward to me. Now, it would certainly be handy to learn the language and familiarize with the culture - which many Latvian Russians do - and it’s a correct turn to make Latvian courses mandatory - but suppressing Russian culture is a step too far, and something that should never be applied to anyone. Luckily, I’m not the only one thinking this way.
I do speak Ukrainian (мова, anyone?), although I must admit that since I’ve spent more time living here in Russia and not everyone even in Ukraine spoke Ukrainian, I do speak Russian better. But same is true for most Eastern Ukrainians anyway.
I don’t white-wash anything, I’m only saying hostility is not a viable option. You, along many others, try to push all blame on everyday Russians - and there could be a grain of truth to that, more could be done a decade ago to make sure this never happens - but what do you want now? What is the proposed course of action, exactly?
When those questions come up, I don’t know the answers. And I desperately wish to have one. One thing I do know is that getting hostile to Russians makes them hostile to you, which gradually shifts the idea of hostile Russians into a self-fulfilling prophecy, boosting Putin’s support. If you didn’t see it, one of the main patriotic tropes of Russia is that the world is full of enemies that hate Russians. Don’t make this true; people do not reason when they are despised, and they will not come to the conclusion that this is meant to stimulate them to do something. By trying to make Russians feel “consequences of their actions”, you really just feed directly into Putin’s propaganda machine and make Russians actually hate you.
No, that wasn’t me, and media can be accessed - at least via VPNs. Not gonna argue on that - and I still insist the support is not as broad as you imagine it to be, although sometimes it looks like some folks do everything in their power to make it true. Also, collective punishment over those in particular who support the war is never a good option at any ratio. This, by the way, has further alienated some of the opposition.
As I said, I do not have strong opinions on Russo-Ukrainian border. If Ukraine retakes Crimea and Donbass, then be it. If Russia captures them, okay. You think the reason I’m talking this is because I take the side of Russia, but I don’t take either side. If Ukraine ends up including Kursk (which was Russian pre-war), and Russia ends up including Luhansk (which was Ukrainian pre-war), and the peace is then brokered, whatever! I have zero loyalty to either country, and see the concept of a country to be imposed and alien, introducing conflicts over nothing that actually matters. I am, however, loyal to people, all people, and naturally sensitive to the struggles of those living on both sides of this very border. And on one side there are people not only suffering from rocket strikes, but also chased and beaten and pushed to go to their death (aka бусифікація), and on the other the country is turning into a war machine, feeding its young men into the grinder as well (aka могилизация). Stop that first, it’s an obvious priority task, isn’t it?
Now, does this approach of hostility make it any closer? If anything, it makes peace further away, it drives people further away. And it’s a big deal.
Maybe being nice to Russians didn’t help them stop Putin. But being hostile to Russians plays straight into Putin’s deck. It looks, however, like retribution for you is the goal in itself, not a measure to actually help anyone, on any side of the frontline.
With that said, I don’t think this is the kind of conversation worth having.
Russians are already hostile to Ukrainians my man. Saying “if you don’t treat us with respect, then we’ll really fuck you up, this is nothing!” is just another facet of russian supremacist and imperialist thinking. As are your justifications of protecting russian settler colonialism in Ukraine or Latvia.
What fucking self-fulfilling prophecy? Russians have been invading Ukraine and working on eradicating Ukrainian identity for a third of independent Ukraine’s history (and that’s just one example, there is also Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya and Belarus). Not to mention all the work russians have done on trying to eliminate Ukrainian identity in the centuries before.
Being nice to russians? How were Ukrainians not nice to russians before 2014? We decided to demonstrate self-determination?
We’ve seen how peace was brokered after 2014. So spare your fake calls for peace. You full well know that peace for most russians is just re-grouping period for another invasion and more mass murder of Ukrainians.
Buying into false allegation that the majority of russians do not want to eradicate Ukrainian identity is not going to bring peace in Ukraine.
The first step for Ukrainian society (and it’s sad that it took so much death and destruction to get there) is recognizing that:
A strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists. They overwhelming supported the annexation of Crimea. At the very least a strong majority support the full scale invasion and eradication of Ukrainian identity and mass killings/torture of Ukrainians in occupied territories.
Russians are not going to change any time soon. Not because of some “imperialist gene” or something stupid like that, but because of the choices they make (as adults that hold responsibility for their actions).
Poland and the Baltic nations recognized this and successfully took measures to account for this (you can’t invade them and you destroy their culture).
We did not and that is why we are going through this current hell.
I dare say it’s an outcome of being nice to russians before 2014.
You’re lying about the authors conclusions. They explicitly stated that the support was higher than 65% due to their methodology. And they did clearly state that preference falsification is a mere ~10%. Therefore their research (like any quantitative research on this topic) supports my statement that the majority of russians are genocidal imperialists as they want to conquer Ukraine and destroy Ukrainian identity.
No, they need to learn the Latvian language at a high level if they want to live there. This is basic component of calling a place your home. You have to some loyalty to your country and not support a genocidal enemy. The fact that russian culture is at least on some level defined by genocidal imperialism is not a problem of the Latvians. This is basic stuff.
Ukraine is not your home. You are a russian, no Ukrainian would try to come up with “war is necessity” word salad or your comical “russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now”. So don’t lie!
You don’t care about borders because you don’t care about the ten of thousands of civilians in russian torture dungeons. We also both know that vast majority of russians are not interested in any kind of real peace. Just like in 2014, the goal is to get some breathing room, then attacks and try and get more territory and exterminate Ukrainian culture in the newly occupied territories. This approach is nearly universally known and (silently) supported by a strong majority of russians.
GTFO with your “on my people”. You defend russian imperialism and colonialism and you dare to imply you have some relation to Ukraine?
Victimhood is a defining element of russian culture. Without it there is no russian “culture”. Conspiracy theories blaming foreign countries for any and all ills are extremely prevalent in russian society. This has been true in the past, this is true today and it will be true in the future.
I don’t understand what you mean by your “punisher” sentence. The vast majority russians already blame everyone but themselves for all their problems. You brought up russophobia as an implicit excuse for russian crimes. Russophobia doesn’t really exist. When a society consist of a strong majority of genocidal imperialists that lack empathy, it is reasonable to see that society as a threat and a problem. This is not rocket science.
Have you ever seen a well known russian (outside a few figures like Novodvorskaya) admit that at least part of the problem lies in russian society at large? I think not … because we both know the role of victimhood among russians.
To develop a russia strategy that works, the world needs to understand that russians will never act in good faith, russians will always play the victim and a strong majority of russians are committed and genuine ethno-racial supremacists that lack empathy.
Alienating russians is a red herring. The only way forward is a sober view of russian culture and methods and an understanding that russia only understand force; you have to treat them like they treat others.
Even if that were true (which is not, read the damn conclusions section), this doesn’t support your emotional notion. And as much as I’d like to share such a simple outrage, it’s not helpful.
It would be weird to see all Russians born in Latvia only support Latvian side of things, just as it would be weird to see each and every Latvian born in Russia supporting Russia.
I never said I see war as necessary, I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone. I personally am anti-war and I call for peace through whatever means necessary, because - surprise surprise - I care about people’s lives and you seemingly don’t. It is curently you who calls for brute force solutions.
And you trying to say my ethnicity is not valid is laughable. Oh yeah, gonna be unborn to my Ukrainian father and forget my entire Ukrainian bloodline. Maybe your cultural shock at facing a Ukrainian who doesn’t immediately call to destroy all Russians is your problem? Then go around and maybe talk to some outside political circlejerks.
Russian culture is independent and beautiful, not defined by anything in particular - just as Ukrainian. You trying to minimize it to “victimhood” or even politics more broadly is an insult to everything good the country has produced - and there is plenty.
The perfect scenario I see is peace talks, and then Ukraine joining NATO. There are talks on the NATO side, but they require Ukraine to leave the current war first. I do think this is the best way forward, as Russian security guarantees are proven not to be trusted.
Seeing any national or ethnic group as “inherently dangerous” is nothing but a way to more abuse, and a common justification for imperialist wars, too. There is no such society in Russia, and seeing it this way is an issue of your perception. But regardless, make peace talks and then invite Ukraine to NATO. Problem solved.
This is just one survey you can look multiple other (different provider, different methodologies) and they show the same thing. Bold of you to call me emotional when you’re approach to any and all research (or even history for that matter) is “it’s not valid if it doesn’t show russians in a good light”.
They are not really Latvian if they support Latvia’s enemies, are they? This is not a complex topic, if you don’t support the country, don’t want to learn the language, don’t care for the culture, then you can’t call the country your home.
The goal and the outcome of the war and occupation of Ukrainian territories. Preference falsification goes both ways. This is not some sort of secret information; the individuals know full well that Ukrainian are brutally prosecuted in the occupied territories and they support it. That is why they are genocidal imperialists.
Never denied your ethnic background. I said you are not Ukrainian; not all Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian (one example would be Crimean Tartars). You don’t speak Ukrainian, you don’t live in Ukraine, you openly white-wash russian genocidal imperialism, you support settler colonialism in the Baltic nations (literally saying the Latvia must tolerate individuals that openly oppose Latvian statehood and want to turn Latvia into an authoritarian hellhole).
I brought up victimhood because revanchism and victimhood are defining features of russian culture. It doesn’t have to be that way, but that is the choice russians make. Going back to my previous post, show me one example where a public figure (not Novodvorskaya or Kasprov) admitted that at least some of russia’s trouble are the cause of russians themselves and they need to take responsibility for their actions. Since you claim that victimhood is not a defining element of russian society/culture, this should be easy.
I am not going to speculate on future developments. One thing I will say is I would never trust any russian who talks about “peace”.
I believe I explicitly stated that I don’t believe that russians are “inherently imperialist”. I do believe that this a choice that they make and that we should treat them as adults.
Earlier in this thread someone (was it you?) claimed that russians have no access independent non-state media. I pointed out that this was false and that every russian with a smartphone has had uncensored access to youtube (until this summer) and that major reliable news agencies have had russian language service on YT since ~2010. The point being is that the broad alignment of a strong majority of russian society with state propaganda is a choice! And russians need to take responsibility for it.
You mentioned helpful. Let me flip this around a bit. How has your approach (“russians are defacto completely innocent and you’re just spreading hate!”) been helpful to your own country?
What has your “opposition” achieved in the past 15 years? I will note that they have largely maintained a chauvinistic posture - e.g. support the annexation of Crimea. How will everyone (Ukrainians? the west?) being “helpful” (as defined by you) impact anything in Russia?
No, I just highlight that the research you provided doesn’t say what you want it to say. And I can’t really find many articles that confirm your notion.
You can call the country your home if you constantly live and/or were born there. Quite straightforward to me. Now, it would certainly be handy to learn the language and familiarize with the culture - which many Latvian Russians do - and it’s a correct turn to make Latvian courses mandatory - but suppressing Russian culture is a step too far, and something that should never be applied to anyone. Luckily, I’m not the only one thinking this way.
I do speak Ukrainian (мова, anyone?), although I must admit that since I’ve spent more time living here in Russia and not everyone even in Ukraine spoke Ukrainian, I do speak Russian better. But same is true for most Eastern Ukrainians anyway.
I don’t white-wash anything, I’m only saying hostility is not a viable option. You, along many others, try to push all blame on everyday Russians - and there could be a grain of truth to that, more could be done a decade ago to make sure this never happens - but what do you want now? What is the proposed course of action, exactly?
When those questions come up, I don’t know the answers. And I desperately wish to have one. One thing I do know is that getting hostile to Russians makes them hostile to you, which gradually shifts the idea of hostile Russians into a self-fulfilling prophecy, boosting Putin’s support. If you didn’t see it, one of the main patriotic tropes of Russia is that the world is full of enemies that hate Russians. Don’t make this true; people do not reason when they are despised, and they will not come to the conclusion that this is meant to stimulate them to do something. By trying to make Russians feel “consequences of their actions”, you really just feed directly into Putin’s propaganda machine and make Russians actually hate you.
No, that wasn’t me, and media can be accessed - at least via VPNs. Not gonna argue on that - and I still insist the support is not as broad as you imagine it to be, although sometimes it looks like some folks do everything in their power to make it true. Also, collective punishment over those in particular who support the war is never a good option at any ratio. This, by the way, has further alienated some of the opposition.
As I said, I do not have strong opinions on Russo-Ukrainian border. If Ukraine retakes Crimea and Donbass, then be it. If Russia captures them, okay. You think the reason I’m talking this is because I take the side of Russia, but I don’t take either side. If Ukraine ends up including Kursk (which was Russian pre-war), and Russia ends up including Luhansk (which was Ukrainian pre-war), and the peace is then brokered, whatever! I have zero loyalty to either country, and see the concept of a country to be imposed and alien, introducing conflicts over nothing that actually matters. I am, however, loyal to people, all people, and naturally sensitive to the struggles of those living on both sides of this very border. And on one side there are people not only suffering from rocket strikes, but also chased and beaten and pushed to go to their death (aka бусифікація), and on the other the country is turning into a war machine, feeding its young men into the grinder as well (aka могилизация). Stop that first, it’s an obvious priority task, isn’t it?
Now, does this approach of hostility make it any closer? If anything, it makes peace further away, it drives people further away. And it’s a big deal.
Maybe being nice to Russians didn’t help them stop Putin. But being hostile to Russians plays straight into Putin’s deck. It looks, however, like retribution for you is the goal in itself, not a measure to actually help anyone, on any side of the frontline.
With that said, I don’t think this is the kind of conversation worth having.
Russians are already hostile to Ukrainians my man. Saying “if you don’t treat us with respect, then we’ll really fuck you up, this is nothing!” is just another facet of russian supremacist and imperialist thinking. As are your justifications of protecting russian settler colonialism in Ukraine or Latvia.
What fucking self-fulfilling prophecy? Russians have been invading Ukraine and working on eradicating Ukrainian identity for a third of independent Ukraine’s history (and that’s just one example, there is also Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya and Belarus). Not to mention all the work russians have done on trying to eliminate Ukrainian identity in the centuries before.
Being nice to russians? How were Ukrainians not nice to russians before 2014? We decided to demonstrate self-determination?
We’ve seen how peace was brokered after 2014. So spare your fake calls for peace. You full well know that peace for most russians is just re-grouping period for another invasion and more mass murder of Ukrainians.
Buying into false allegation that the majority of russians do not want to eradicate Ukrainian identity is not going to bring peace in Ukraine.
The first step for Ukrainian society (and it’s sad that it took so much death and destruction to get there) is recognizing that:
Poland and the Baltic nations recognized this and successfully took measures to account for this (you can’t invade them and you destroy their culture).
We did not and that is why we are going through this current hell.
I dare say it’s an outcome of being nice to russians before 2014.