In a conversation with AfD leader Alice Weidel on X, Musk concurred with her assertion that Adolf Hitler was a communist and pushed disinformation about migrants coming into the US.
It is absolutely in the interest of workers to ignore safety concerns. They want to go home earlier, they don’t care enough, they don’t think it’s important enough, etc. If you work in the trades, or in factories, or another industrial environment, you can find dozens of safety violations even in a well-kept place. Your following points don’t follow because the base is wrong.
Furthermore, identifying Anarchism as the only form of Socialism, is dishonest. Socialism isn’t about abolition of hierarchy, Anarchism is specificially. Socialism is an economic mode of production based around collectivization of property, but not necessarily abolition of class or hierarchy. Anarchism seeks to turn everyone into Petite Bourgeoisie out of a desire to eliminate hierarchy, Marxisk seeks to collectivize property equally among everyone out of a desire to eliminate class. Both are Socialist.
Power, authority, hierarchy, whatever you wish to call it, is a tool. The goal of Socialism is the uplifting and abolition of the Proletariat, simple as. It is not about “ceasing to infringe on any other worker’s self-interests,” such a mischaracterization is idealist. It is not “infringing on worker’s interests” for OSHA to be able to shut down unsafe production even if the people there want to keep going, rather, it protects them and the people that could have been hurt.
At the end of the day, by trying to redefine Socialism as Anarchism and say Marxism isn’t Socialist, you aren’t going to convince anyone. You’re not convincing me, and you sure aren’t convincing anyone else. You say Marx gets stuff “wrong,” but the stuff he supposedly got wrong is all stuff you seemed to have made up. It’s silly, and this isn’t going anymore.
They want to go home earlier, they don’t care enough, they don’t think it’s important enough, etc
And why would workers want that? Or, differently put: If they don’t care, why are they working in the first place?
Any job worth doing is worth doing right. That’s the intrinsic value of work, those things you mentioned only come into play when work is compelled by external factors. Convince people to work instead of compelling them and there will be intrinsic motivation and yes they’re going to do it right.
“Marxism isn’t proper socialism” is a story as old as Marx, btw. There were always people who disagreed with him, vehemently so, and he didn’t found the worker’s movement.
A lot of necessary jobs go undone if nobody wants to do them, like garbage disposal, sewer maintenance, etc. The notion that if everyone did only what everyone wanted, at least without moving to the far, far future, that everything necessary for society to function would get done is baseless.
Furthermore, the idea that Marxism isn’t Socialist is old, yes. However, Marxism is based on collectivization of property and worker’s rights, so it is Socialist. Further, it’s by far the most historically relevant and the most relevant at a modern point because there are several Marxist states.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to do here, you’re taking a hard-line stance abandoned by most Anarchists a century ago, all you’re doing is making Anarchism look silly when there has been advancements in Anarchist theory. Trying to discredit Marxism as validly Socialist and pretending Socialism means Anarchism only further alienates what you’re saying from actually convincing anyone.
There’s a large difference between taking care of your personal living space and having communal services, and maintaining sewers and toxic waste is at a far worse level. Legitimately, you’re digging a deeper logical hole here.
You’ll have plenty of protective equipment. That’s not the issue. You’ll even have robots.
The issue, I think, is that you don’t know what it’s like to be part of a tribe, never have felt the solidarity and the motivation to contribute according to your abilities that comes along with it.
I thought you were an Anarchist, why are you requiring society to advance to full automation of dirty jobs before changing the system? What happens between now and that level of automation?
I absolutely know solidarity, I’ve worked in factories and industrial environments, alongside union members and leaders, and have contributed to my family and community. You’re making assumptions about me to try to dig yourself out of a logical hole. You want incredibly advanced technology and people to willingly take dirty jobs, but to not have any formalized administration beyond the informal structures that arise naturally. You want this now, but can’t describe how to get there beyond “solidarity.”
What you are describing is fantasy. You can’t describe how you’d get people to do the unquestionably horrible jobs that are nonetheless necessary without requiring them to be automated. The real issue is that you seem to be detatched from the broad working class and think everyone would magically do what’s needed without any administration or direction, this is not even in line with Anarchist thinking.
I suggest reading The Tyranny of Structurelessness, it’s the formalizing of structure that provides for actual democracy and collective aggreement, leaving it informal and based on respect leaves it unaccountable.
What happens between now and that level of automation?
We already do have robots that clean sewers, cleaning sewers isn’t actually the point but doing things “people don’t want to” and, duh, what’ll happen is inventing all automation that might be necessary, as part of prefiguration.
In the meantime I would much rather have a socdem government than a tankie boot in my face. Ask anyone from a post-soviet country as to why.
You’re making assumptions about me
No. I’m drawing conclusions from your choice of argument. What, in your mind, and be honest now, is the social standing of people doing such jobs? Are they respected? Do you respect them? Investigate the value attached to those things, and where those judgements really come from. Did you form them yourself, after careful analysis? Do you have them because it is socially expected that you have them? Is it fantasy to value the sewer worker next door more than Elon Musk? Do you think a society, at large, might be capable of doing that?
You want this now,
When the fuck am I supposed to have said that? Did you, *drumroll*, assume?
…ok you got me. I want this now. I also want bedtime to be abolished. But I’m also an adult, old enough to understand that actionism does not lead anywhere as the socio-psychological component of the system is furnished to prompt exactly that unreflected actionism that reinforces it. Your rebellion has been factored into the equation and is being used against your dreams. It is not sufficient to swim against the stream, you have to get out of the river. It’s nice here, btw, I have dry socks.
You’re running into even more contradictions as we move right along. You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism. Further still, assuming you’re in the Global North, you’d rather perpetuate Imperialism and vast exploitation of the Global South, which is a necessity for Social Democracy in the Global North and perpetuation of Capitalism. Really, this reveals your true intentions, by approving of Social Democracy for as long as “prefiguration” lasts, you approve of the Imperialism it requires to sustain itself. You oppose Socialism more than you oppose Capitalism and Imperialism.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not? Socialism for Marxists is already a transitional phase to Communism, and Marxists want collectivization. Seems you just want to live off of the exploitation of the Global South until they are milked dry, then live in a utopian commune free from struggle, or bad things like pooping.
As for your nonsense notion that I don’t “respect” sanitation workers, it’s the opposite. I respect them greatly, but I understand that their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living. Someone will have to end up doing such work, it is not fully automated, so it is better to have systems like job rotation or lower working hours for the same pay as a form of “hazard adjustment” as is in place in several AES states.
Your last paragraph is just pseudo-intellectual idealist masturbation. It was funny to laugh at, but that’s about it.
It is absolutely in the interest of workers to ignore safety concerns. They want to go home earlier, they don’t care enough, they don’t think it’s important enough, etc. If you work in the trades, or in factories, or another industrial environment, you can find dozens of safety violations even in a well-kept place. Your following points don’t follow because the base is wrong.
Furthermore, identifying Anarchism as the only form of Socialism, is dishonest. Socialism isn’t about abolition of hierarchy, Anarchism is specificially. Socialism is an economic mode of production based around collectivization of property, but not necessarily abolition of class or hierarchy. Anarchism seeks to turn everyone into Petite Bourgeoisie out of a desire to eliminate hierarchy, Marxisk seeks to collectivize property equally among everyone out of a desire to eliminate class. Both are Socialist.
Power, authority, hierarchy, whatever you wish to call it, is a tool. The goal of Socialism is the uplifting and abolition of the Proletariat, simple as. It is not about “ceasing to infringe on any other worker’s self-interests,” such a mischaracterization is idealist. It is not “infringing on worker’s interests” for OSHA to be able to shut down unsafe production even if the people there want to keep going, rather, it protects them and the people that could have been hurt.
At the end of the day, by trying to redefine Socialism as Anarchism and say Marxism isn’t Socialist, you aren’t going to convince anyone. You’re not convincing me, and you sure aren’t convincing anyone else. You say Marx gets stuff “wrong,” but the stuff he supposedly got wrong is all stuff you seemed to have made up. It’s silly, and this isn’t going anymore.
Disengage.
And why would workers want that? Or, differently put: If they don’t care, why are they working in the first place?
Any job worth doing is worth doing right. That’s the intrinsic value of work, those things you mentioned only come into play when work is compelled by external factors. Convince people to work instead of compelling them and there will be intrinsic motivation and yes they’re going to do it right.
“Marxism isn’t proper socialism” is a story as old as Marx, btw. There were always people who disagreed with him, vehemently so, and he didn’t found the worker’s movement.
A lot of necessary jobs go undone if nobody wants to do them, like garbage disposal, sewer maintenance, etc. The notion that if everyone did only what everyone wanted, at least without moving to the far, far future, that everything necessary for society to function would get done is baseless.
Furthermore, the idea that Marxism isn’t Socialist is old, yes. However, Marxism is based on collectivization of property and worker’s rights, so it is Socialist. Further, it’s by far the most historically relevant and the most relevant at a modern point because there are several Marxist states.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to do here, you’re taking a hard-line stance abandoned by most Anarchists a century ago, all you’re doing is making Anarchism look silly when there has been advancements in Anarchist theory. Trying to discredit Marxism as validly Socialist and pretending Socialism means Anarchism only further alienates what you’re saying from actually convincing anyone.
Do you want to clean your toilet?
There’s a large difference between taking care of your personal living space and having communal services, and maintaining sewers and toxic waste is at a far worse level. Legitimately, you’re digging a deeper logical hole here.
You’ll have plenty of protective equipment. That’s not the issue. You’ll even have robots.
The issue, I think, is that you don’t know what it’s like to be part of a tribe, never have felt the solidarity and the motivation to contribute according to your abilities that comes along with it.
I thought you were an Anarchist, why are you requiring society to advance to full automation of dirty jobs before changing the system? What happens between now and that level of automation?
I absolutely know solidarity, I’ve worked in factories and industrial environments, alongside union members and leaders, and have contributed to my family and community. You’re making assumptions about me to try to dig yourself out of a logical hole. You want incredibly advanced technology and people to willingly take dirty jobs, but to not have any formalized administration beyond the informal structures that arise naturally. You want this now, but can’t describe how to get there beyond “solidarity.”
What you are describing is fantasy. You can’t describe how you’d get people to do the unquestionably horrible jobs that are nonetheless necessary without requiring them to be automated. The real issue is that you seem to be detatched from the broad working class and think everyone would magically do what’s needed without any administration or direction, this is not even in line with Anarchist thinking.
I suggest reading The Tyranny of Structurelessness, it’s the formalizing of structure that provides for actual democracy and collective aggreement, leaving it informal and based on respect leaves it unaccountable.
We already do have robots that clean sewers, cleaning sewers isn’t actually the point but doing things “people don’t want to” and, duh, what’ll happen is inventing all automation that might be necessary, as part of prefiguration.
In the meantime I would much rather have a socdem government than a tankie boot in my face. Ask anyone from a post-soviet country as to why.
No. I’m drawing conclusions from your choice of argument. What, in your mind, and be honest now, is the social standing of people doing such jobs? Are they respected? Do you respect them? Investigate the value attached to those things, and where those judgements really come from. Did you form them yourself, after careful analysis? Do you have them because it is socially expected that you have them? Is it fantasy to value the sewer worker next door more than Elon Musk? Do you think a society, at large, might be capable of doing that?
When the fuck am I supposed to have said that? Did you, *drumroll*, assume?
…ok you got me. I want this now. I also want bedtime to be abolished. But I’m also an adult, old enough to understand that actionism does not lead anywhere as the socio-psychological component of the system is furnished to prompt exactly that unreflected actionism that reinforces it. Your rebellion has been factored into the equation and is being used against your dreams. It is not sufficient to swim against the stream, you have to get out of the river. It’s nice here, btw, I have dry socks.
You’re running into even more contradictions as we move right along. You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism. Further still, assuming you’re in the Global North, you’d rather perpetuate Imperialism and vast exploitation of the Global South, which is a necessity for Social Democracy in the Global North and perpetuation of Capitalism. Really, this reveals your true intentions, by approving of Social Democracy for as long as “prefiguration” lasts, you approve of the Imperialism it requires to sustain itself. You oppose Socialism more than you oppose Capitalism and Imperialism.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not? Socialism for Marxists is already a transitional phase to Communism, and Marxists want collectivization. Seems you just want to live off of the exploitation of the Global South until they are milked dry, then live in a utopian commune free from struggle, or bad things like pooping.
As for your nonsense notion that I don’t “respect” sanitation workers, it’s the opposite. I respect them greatly, but I understand that their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living. Someone will have to end up doing such work, it is not fully automated, so it is better to have systems like job rotation or lower working hours for the same pay as a form of “hazard adjustment” as is in place in several AES states.
Your last paragraph is just pseudo-intellectual idealist masturbation. It was funny to laugh at, but that’s about it.