They’ve had multiple majority governments and you guys still pay an arm and a leg for diabetes medication.
They literally have a donkey (jackass) as mascot.
I’ve seen a lot of similar comments lately. People wanting to start 3rd parties etc, because the Democrats suck so bad.
Yes, it’s true. They suck, but if you’re going to beat the Republicans, you’ll need to look at what Trump did. He didn’t start a 3rd party. No, he took the existing party and changed it into whatever the fuck it is now.
You need to change the democratic party from within too, because 3rd parties will always lose because of the first past the post. 3rd parties also have a tendency to branch out, because quite frankly, not being Democrat or Republican isn’t enough of a politic in itself, and you guys don’t get along well on anything else. The Republicans had this issue for a long time until Trump came along providing them with something that united their voters more than the previous politic of simply being not Democrats.
The democratic party already has a framework for running politics and they actually have some kind of democracy within that allows people to change it. Yeah, it will require a lot of work to get enough people engaged in politics to make the change, but it is absolutely much less than what is required to start a successful 3rd party.
Your problem is that Democrat politicians are also largely rich white dudes, who’d rather be republican than progressive.
… that is why you need to join and elect other politicians.
The difference with the Republican party’s changes with Trump and the idea of performing entryism in the Democrats to make it a worker party is that Trump’s changes to the GOP are already in line with what the Bourgeoisie wants. The DNC cannot be entered and changed into a working class party because they too get their base from the bourgeoisie.
This is why revolution is necessary to gain real change in favor of the working class.
So…if that’s your only option… when are you going to start a revolution?
When the working class is organized enough for that to happen. I suggest joining a party or organization near you so that you can assist with that, wherever you live.
I’m not American but I will promise to support you if it comes to that.
The workers unionisation in my country against land owners in the 1800s would not have succeeded without international support. I’d gladly chip in for anyone attempting to do the same.
🫡
People wanting to start 3rd parties etc, because the Democrats suck so bad.
Great way to have Republicans in power for the rest of our lives. I can’t see how anyone who voted 3rd party in November can STILL think it was a smart decision despite immediately finding out it wasn’t.
One of the most frustrating things in my whole life is how people simply cannot grasp that you cannot cheat code your way to voting a 3rd party presidential candidate into the Oval Office. Like, is it that difficult for people to understand that parties have to start winning locally, then getting representatives in state offices, then in the House and Senate, before a new party could even stand a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning a presidential election?
These fools need to stop fucking around with presidential election votes and start voting for a 3rd party in their local/state elections. Totally fucking pointless to vote 3rd party for president. You’re literally just ushering in Republican presidents by doing that shit.
As you said, it’s far more realistic to put pressure on the Democratic party to change than engage in a fantasy scenario where everyone holds hands and votes a 3rd party into power out of literally nowhere.
But, as you can see by your downvotes, people just want what they want right now. Logic be damned.
“Logic be damned.”
That’ll be inscribed on America’s tombstone.
“The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.”
I attribute the quote wrong all the time, but today the internet says it’s from Julius Nyerere, who was a prime minister in Africa back in the 1960s.
We need progressive primary challengers, and we need PARTICIPATION in the primaries. Primary voter turnout is like 15% or something equally pathetic last I checked.
Yup.
Millions of Americans LOVE complaining about our presidential nominees but are nowhere to be found during the primaries. Can’t be bothered to be proactive. Can only be bothered to complain after the fact.
That’s more because Primary candidates are all pre-selected and don’t stand to change the system. Voter apathy is high bevause voter will isn’t represented by the dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
Stop re-electing these ancient incumbents who are WAY too comfortable being Republican-lite. Vote for younger candidates, preferably someone who was born AFTER the Battle of the Bulge.
I don’t think that makes a difference. Ben Shapiro is young and is alt-right
Is Ben Shaprio a democrat candidate?
I think it makes a huge difference- Shapiro is just one person. And to prove the point, look how much influence he, a young guy, is having on our political landscape. Not that they’re the perfect politicians, but look at how much support people like AOC and Tulsi Gabbard drum up. We need people that are energized and that can energize others.
It is not about wether someone is young or old, but that the system is rotten and needs to go. Also, we are not getting anything better in this system.
Democrats destroyed it when Chuck Shumer sided with Republicans. It is Joever.
I posted this and to my utter amazement both the comments and votes went completely opposed to my expectations:
This is quote from their former member, Huey Long:
“They’ve got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side, but no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen”
— Huey Long, campaign speech for the re-election of Senator Hattie Caraway (D-AR), 1932 (Williams p. 589)
Your title should have read “How do you destroy the notion that Republicans are the good guys?”
There are far too many Americans that support the far right. They’ve been convinced that conservatism will protect their interests, even while it blatantly destroys them. It is a morally greater objective to turn these people around, and more practically achievable, than undermining its opponent.
Yes, we know. You think liberalism is an ally of conservatism, not an opponent. We’re all very impressed with your extensive knowledge, bravo. You’ve shown nuanced and deep understanding of the political landscape by criticizing the contender of the enemy.
I think most people who criticize the left are like you. More interested in stroking their egos than actually solving a problem. You’re trying to demonstrate mastery of a subject by being critical of it, not because you want it to change but because you want people to be impressed with you.
If you actually wanted things to get better you’d be teaching people to undermine conservatism, which is the greater threat.
Be better.
Conservativism is a wing of liberalism, though. They are based in the same general underlying understanding of economics and methods of solving social problems. Right here you accuse OP of wanting to stroke their ego more than solve a problem, but I don’t believe that’s the case at all. You believing in a different solution does not mean they aren’t also trying to solve problems, this is more of a character assassination than anything else.
Conservativism cannot truly be undermined without also undermining liberalism. Leftists must organize, millitant labor organizing remains the most effective means of combatting conservativism, and is held outside the realm of liberal problem solving, usually. In my opinion, we cannot effectively combat conservativism without also addressing liberalism.
Barring whatever other insanity is in this thread, you’re left with the problem that OP is asking how to destroy democrats. If it were “how do we destroy republicans? Also I’m chill if democrats are also destroyed” that would be a different message. But the message was how do I destroy democrats.
That’s not the issue being discussed, though. In the US, there is the notion among the Working Class that just backing the Democrats harder will solve the ails of society. This isn’t true, though, the answer lies in millitant labor organizing.
Moreover, without erasing the foundations for why there’s a Republican party in the first place, you can’t truly “destroy” it. Another far-right party will continue to take its place, be that the Democrats or a new party. Asking how to destroy a party isn’t the problem, here, the problem is in moving away from using the Democrats to push for change, which historically is a strategic failure, and instead push for millitant labor organizing.
Not sure what you mean by “insanity” in this thread, either.
How do you destroy the notion that Democrats are the good guys?
Seems like the issue being discussed. Or do you think that once the democrats are seen as the bad guys by everyone they will stick around?
Destroying the notion of the Democrats being the good guys is a separate concept from destroying the Democrats. The reasoning of Communists for abandoning the DNC is because it cannot and never will support the Working Class, ergo it isn’t a viable strategy.
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Why is it always homophobia and misogyny are the go-tos for people describing their hatred for Marxists?
Without electoral reform, there’s no functional reason to. The lesser evil of the current system is Democrats. If you want to enact change, push support for the progressive wing of the party and push for electoral reform.
Still doesn’t really solve the problem of candidates being pre-approved for the bourgeoisie.
Don’t let imperfection get in the way of progress. If you move slightly towards the left, you’re opening doors for more left ideology.
I think I’d agree with you more if I believed “pushing for XYZ” was a valid strategy for implementing structures opening the door for progress in a system dominated by those who benefit from the status quo. Without that belief, I turn to other historically succesful methods of gaining change, like millitant labor organizing and revolution.
It’s the most anti-communist country on the planet, so there’s not much hope. Talk of raising wages or organizing collectively, or not agreeing with US imperialist foreign policy gets you labelled a commie / tankie by its witch-hunting, McCarthyite majority.
If there’s a list of countries to next take the communist road, the US would be dead last.
Nobody gets labeled a tankie get out of here with your projection lol.
Commie tho, all the time.
There were quite literally people throwing around the term “tankie” in this very thread.
I hope you realize Lemmy does not represent the average American…
Sure, but IRL and outside media I still hear “tankie” more than “commie,” and more importantly the original comment was made in the context of Lemmy.
Talk of raising wages or organizing collectively, or not agreeing with US imperialist foreign policy gets you labelled a commie / tankie by its witch-hunting, McCarthyite majority
You’re telling me this statement is about Lemmy and not the US in general?
It relates to talking with USians in general, which includes interactions online, including Lemmy.
democrats are simply the ‘lesser evil’, and have been since the 1960s, at least… and we’ve needed a viable third party left of the mainstream for longer.
republican administrations drag us down and undo gains made. democrats repair some of the damage–but never quite enough, never push progress enough. they lose. it gets undone again and the cycle repeats.
but now it’s all getting destroyed. there may not be a continuation of the cycle. it’s hell from here on until ‘trumpism’ and maga are what is completely destroyed.
Yeah.
There is always that cycle that includes “Democrats didn’t do everything they promised so they deserve to suffer”, which brings in Republicans that cause far more damage.
And given the number of election cycles, you would think there would be some organization by now for overall leftist causes, but there isn’t. There is no party or organization out there that can pose an electoral threat. The right produced the TEA party, which morphed to MAGA. Leftists have nothing.
Democrats don’t even promise anything anymore. Not since 2008
2008 is what ultimately radicalized me. I volunteered for Obama, put in so much footwork, and really believed he would seek to make change. Looking back now, what a fool I was.
2006 made me suspicious of the Democrats forever. Pelosi and the party ran on defunding the Iraq War, then promptly dropped it upon taking office.
I DID primary for Obama because he was promising a public healthcare option. We all know how that turned out: he ultimately championed a Republican scheme to entrench private insurers. Democrats failed to support their party’s signature policy proposal when it mattered.
While Obama expanded the Bush wars…
That’s when I gave up all hope in the party making any progress or acting in good faith. They haven’t given me any reason to rethink that stance.
Sorry your efforts and enthusiasm were wasted and abused by the DNC…
I recall the Coffee Party having a moment, a nationwide movement planned meetups all coordinated. In Asheville, I attended. the meetup was crashed by Obama’s Organizing for America, and I later learned that they crashed meetups everywhere.
I remember the smooth-talking guy and how he hijacked the meeting as we were making real progress. Fuck Obama and fuck the DNC
The hope and change trick worked twice with Obama 1 and trump 1…
Now it feels like a tired trope to get a “safe” regime whore into the white house
@adarza@lemmy.ca
@Confidant6198@lemmy.ml I thought we were finally making progress with Rank Choice Voting starting to gain traction, but agree… there may not be enough left to salvage after this unless the MAGA movement collapses before the midterms… assuming we still are have elections and people other than white land owners can vote. Still not entirely sure how far back Trump supporters need to go for the “again” point when America was great.
MAGA are NOT the majority of Americans, but sadly they only slightly exceed the Americans who don’t vote at all. While not the government many Americans wanted, when “I’m not into politics” stopped resulting in an immediate response of “so you aren’t American?”, we ended up with the government we deserve.
Realistically, it’s an impossibility. This view is mostly propagated via liberal news sources, having the main battle be conservatism vs progressivism or left vs right (as opposed to class struggle, the poor vs rich, working class vs capitalists), and since the democrats are more progressive than republicans, they’re the “good guys” who should be supported.
For it to be destroyed, we’d have to catch up to their level of influence and reach or even surpass it, to show people that they’re a party of capitalists who sometimes are progressive, and not an actual ally of the working or middle classes but only pretending to be one. Maybe going one step further too and influencing progressive movements democrats support to pay attention to economic aspects too, given how their root causes aren’t purely social?
But again, it’s impossible for us workers to have such reach, given how well funded media is.
We don’t have to do anything other then work on passing electoral reform one state at a time. Democrats can be whatever the hell they want, so long as everyone is free to vote how they want with the ability to transfer their vote.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
Historically, that doesn’t actually fix systemic issues, though, like the only parties of relevance electorally being pre-approved and backed by the bourgeoisie. Moreover, electoral reform doesn’t have a real path to implementation that would make more sense than revolution to begin with.
it’s a long road with a lot more steps but simply “destroying” the notion that democrats are the good guys simply gets you republicans and that’s gotta be the worst way to shift left ever
The road is revolution, not just against the Democrats or Republicans, but the entire system.
revolution is easy to say on the internet but at the end of the day a lot of people die
People die without revolution, historically revolutionary Socialism has come with dramatic improvements in quality of life for the Working Class. Taking down the US Empire would massively uplift the burden on the Global South as well.
perhaps, or perhaps it could be replaced by something worse. there are no guarantees
Read up on historical revolution, Socialist revolution has a great track record, and if the US Empire didn’t interfere it would be even better.
economic systems don’t happen on accident
This has never done anything in countries that use it, like SK, Japan, Australia, etc. It might make the candidate stacking a little more expensive, but that’s it.
If capital stands above the political system, the method of voting doesn’t matter.
The Deprogram podcast, Hakim, and Second Thought YT channels all exist to address this. It’s rather obvious to anybody willing to learn
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Complaining about Marxist-Leninists on a platform made by MLs and the instance maintained by them is a bit silly. There’s nothing “crypto” about support for Communism on Lemmy.
Moreover, I find that the ones most critical of the USSR, as in the ones best looking at what honestly and truthfully went wrong with the Soviet Union, are MLs. It’s easy to regurgitate “100 gorillion dead no iphone vuvuzela,” but that isn’t particularly critical as it isn’t based in reality, just non-sequitors and gotchas.
Meanwhile, MLs can usually talk in depth about the issues with Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and even Kruschev’s reforms, or the struggles with planning by hand in a computerized era, discussion on whether or not the NEP should have been modified, extended, or eliminated even earlier or right on time, and more. This is because MLs want to use the Soviet Union as an example, learn from the good and learn from the bad so we can more effectively build a Socialist future.
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Most ex-Soviets regret the collapse of the USSR, actually. This is well-documented.
The article seems to be missing polling history from countries that don’t support it’s thesis, like Poland.
No idea what you mean by a “thesis,” but countries like Estonia are included. I am unsure if polling has been done in Poland regarding this, but even if everyone in Poland prefered Capitalism it would still be true that the majority of ex-Soviet citizens prefer Socialism.
ex-Soviet citizens prefer Socialism.
That’s not exactly what the polls in the article were about though?
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