Oh yeah. Let trump back in and see how that works for them.
I can’t for the life of me understand how these people think. A no vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. Simple as that. Now I’m not excited about Biden but I prefer Biden 100x over Trump and the right wing Christian militia.
It’s a choice between someone who will slap you in the face and someone who will shoot you in the groin.
That’s not a fair statement. I am sure Trump would shoot you in the groin AND slap you in the face.
People who think Trump won’t further exacerbate the situation are deluded. But that’s the problem here, these people aren’t thinking at all. They either can’t make the connection or don’t care.
The point is they get fucked either way. Why do they give a shit if one asshole is in the white house over another if the end result is the same.
Yeah who gives a fuck if lots of other parts of their lives get worse in the process? Fuck Biden!!!1
I mean for some people yea fuck it. When it rains it pours. Sometimes I’d rather the fucking thing collapse than keep having to choose a turd and a shit sandwich.
What about self flagellation makes you think it’ll cause a collapse?
Flagellation? You’re weird dude. I’m just saying everyone thinks trump is the Antichrist, fuck it if he gets another term. Apparently life as we know is over if he gets In according to liberals.
Honestly he’s probably going to win anyway. Biden has only courted the centrists whi will vote based on gas prices and inflation. Progressives withdrawing support may at least show the next round we cant be taken for granted.
Honestly, I think its good to apply this pressure in the moment. This is the people showing some of way they can do. Regardless of the outcome later. I really don’t think what they’re saying is they’ll vote for Trump. But they have to apply pressure somehow.
Exactly. The Biden administration still has time to get things right. But after the last few weeks, I honestly think they don’t have any pull on Netanyahu. So he’ll suffer the consequences if he doesn’t do something else. He has enough options.
Also the only thing Americans can do right now, is to mobilize the same count of people that are dropping out right now. I mean, there’s pro and anti Palestine right? Right?
I honestly think they don’t have any pull on Netanyahu
They have some pull, but politically Netanyahu is a dead man walking. The problem is that it’s arguably not in the US interest if Israel holds elections now. Someone like Ben-Gvir would become even more influential.
A reminder:
Itamar Ben-Gvir … is an Israeli lawyer and far-right politician who serves as the Minister of National Security. … Ben-Gvir, a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. … He was also previously convicted of supporting a terrorist group known as Kach, which espoused Kahanism, an extremist religious Zionist ideology. … Under his leadership, the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), a party which espouses Kahanism and anti-Arabism, won six seats in the 2022 Israeli legislative election … He has called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel. Ben Gvir is “widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities” … led several visits to the Temple Mount as activist and member of Knesset, contentious marches through Jerusalem’s Old City Muslim Quarter, and set up an office in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood which witnessed several evictions of Palestinians. On 3 January 2023, he visited the Temple Mount where the al-Aqsa Mosque is located, spurring an international wave of criticism that labelled his visit purposely provocative. As a lawyer, he is known for defending Jewish radicals and terrorists on trial in Israel. … Prior to entering politics, he defended Jews spitting at Christians as a “an ancient Jewish custom”. … Ben-Gvir is married to Ayala Nimrodi… The couple has five children, and they live in the Israeli settlement of Kiryat Arba/Hebron, which is deemed illegal under international law, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.
Thanks for that, I’ve heard of him but not in so much detail.
Any material action that leads to Trump (or a Trump imitator) returning to office is material support for fascism.
“I’ll let fascists take over my country if the liberals here don’t stop the fascists in that country over there” is ideological support for fascism.
I interpreted this more as “we’ll vote against you in the primary and get angrier when you subvert our votes”
So you condone fascism? If you condone fascism now to stave off future fascism, you condone fascism.
What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right. Albert Einstein
No matter the choice someone is supporting fascism. By not voting you support fascism and by voting you support fascism. Because the two party system is broken and complete bull shit offering no real choice.
I’m not supporting fascism now. Next November, I’ll worry about not supporting fascism then.
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Enforcing physically? No. The least America could have done is adopt the UN Resolution. A more proactive approach would be stopping financial aid and sanctions. Through the UN and unilaterally. Altercations would always be the last option.
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I don’t condone it here or there.
I don’t condone it anywhere.
I do not like this Bibi N.
I do not like him now or then.
He’s as bad at least as Trump.
He’s an ape who throws his dump.
But if you live in purple state
You are obliged for our land’s fate.
If you throw the vote to Trump,
You’re the one who threw the dump.
You’re the one who spread the brown.
You’re the one who wrecked your town.
If you fail to vote for Joe,
Let your state to Trump’s red go,
If we drown in fascist poo,
It will be the fault of you.That’s a false dilemma. There is a scenario where Biden wins because he does the right thing now.
You can’t stop fascism over there by threatening to put fascists in charge here. Trump expressly approves of human rights violations, remember? He doesn’t just tolerate them in allies; he likes them. They’re a show of strength. Fascists love strength.
I’d like to see US military aid to Israel contingent on a better human rights record. Hell, I’d like to see a policy of bankrupting China if it doesn’t free its slaves (including the North Koreans, who are held in slavery by Chinese support for Juche fascism).
I think those are long shots under liberalism, but they’re impossible under fascism.
But if you throw the US to fascism because the liberals didn’t do good enough, that is a revealed preference for fascism here on your part.
Our voting system sucks. But we still have to use it to keep fascists out of office.
You’re refusing to understand my comment, and doggedly holding to the false dilemma. If you have to compromise your morals now, to win tomorrow, then you’ve already lost. The election is next year, a lot can change before then. The war is happening now.
Our voting system requires that voters “compromise their morals” if they want to avoid electing the most immoral candidate.
That is a mathematical truth about first-past-the-post voting. It is part of why we should switch to approval voting, ranked choice, or another such system as soon as possible. Most other systems require less compromising your morals to meet the goal of keeping the worst candidate out of office.
The moral voter recognizes this, realizes they cannot fix the voting system before the next election …and refuses the temptation to let the bad guy win just to spite the insufficiently-good guy.
Morality ultimately rests on outcomes, not purity. If you take actions that are consistent with getting fascists elected, that is your morality right there.
You’ve lost the plot and are condoning genocide to win an election.
Alright, fine. Turn the pressure up on Biden hoping he’ll shift positions before the election. Cool.
The thing is, even if he doesn’t shift, he’s still the best option. At the moment, Biden is sympathetic to a fascist foreign government, but he’s not trying to institute fascism in the US. Trump IS an outright fascist, and literally tried to overthrow the government. Biden is bad, but Trump is far worse, and unfortunately because of the way our election system works, any vote that isn’t for Biden is equivalent to a vote for Trump, including not voting at all.
It’s simple math. Ex: Biden has 5 votes, Trump has 6 votes, and 15 people didn’t vote at all. Of those 15, 4 are Republicans against Trump, 7 are leftists that think Biden is too right wing, and 4 are genuine fence sitters. The fence sitters split evenly, so 7 votes for Biden and 8 for Trump, the other 11 stay home. So in total you have 14 people who ostensibly are more left wing and 12 more right wing, so a left wing majority… but Trump the actual fascist right wing candidate wins.
You can argue all you want that Biden isn’t good enough for you, but the truth is Trump isn’t bad enough for you. If he was, you’d be willing to make compromises to prevent him regaining power.
I’m sure trump will do better. Take your time when aiming at your own foot…
Ugh.
America is going to re-elect Trump, not having learnt the lesson from last time, and here in Europe our politicians have become complacent again and continued to procrastinate on defense spending. But hey, maybe Ukraine will get the F16s they needed a year ago if they wanted to have any chance of avoiding a stalemate.
But hey, maybe Ukraine will get the F16s they needed a year ago if they wanted to have any chance of avoiding a stalemate.
R has been resisting Ukraine aid. They aren’t getting shit if Trump gets in.
This is stupid. Don’t throw down an ultimatum you’re unprepared to act on. Are they really going to risk a Trump reelection if Biden doesn’t follow through? Almost certainly not, and they’d be idiots if they did.
Are they really going to risk a Trump reelection if Biden doesn’t follow through?
I mean yes. Young voters being disappointed with the electoral process and not voting has been a problem for a while, and Biden isn’t making it better. Unfortunately yes, they are likely prepared to act on it.
Then in that case, they’re idiots, and bear a share of the blame if Trump is reelected.
Biden bears the blame if he LOSES the election to trump. He’s the one running. Its his responsibility to EARN the votes. A ceasefire of an ongoing genocide is a tiny ask from “the most progressive president ever” who also is causing millions of deaths in the US from pretending the pandemic is over, making jokes about not wearing masks, and doing nothing to enforce clean air in schools, businesses, etc.
It’s insane people are more angry at the threat of not voting for biden if he doesn’t do the bare minimum of calling for a ceasefire than being mad at biden for funding a genocide by an apartheid state using.
Yeah true enough, but what I’m saying it’s not an empty threat. Some of these much-needed voters will sit out the election if nothing is done about this mess.
That blame cuts both ways. Biden neglecting the progressive leaders if the party is his own undoing. The right is happy to sink centrists, and thats why the US is drifting so far right.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The rallies came one day after a sitting member of Congress, Palestinian-American Rashida Tlaib, released a video that accused her party’s leader of supporting a genocide and ended with a sombre promise: “We will remember in 2024.”
The admonitions of this disproportionately — but not exclusively — young, progressive, Muslim-American crowd don’t appear to represent majority opinion in the United States.
“[It’s] the language of votes,” said Nihad Awad, executive director and co-founder of the Council on American Islamic Relations, before rattling off a list of swing states with significant Muslim populations.
On the other hand, Biden has negotiated the opening of the humanitarian corridor into Gaza, and has publicly — and repeatedly — urged Israel not to give into vengeful impulses and to protect civilian lives.
Tariq Nayfeh, a medical doctor who attended the Washington rally, said he’s hearing horror stories from colleagues and friends in Gaza and the West Bank.
Trump has promised to ban refugees from Gaza and bar immigrants who express sympathy for Hamas, while some other Republicans are proposing legislation to expel Palestinians from the U.S.
The original article contains 1,105 words, the summary contains 169 words. Saved 85%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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This comment section should prove a nice starting point for a “if you try to hold Biden to a standard even a tiny bit above ‘is not Trump’, then that means you genuinely want Trump to win” party soldier/false dichotomy insister blocklist…
What are people supposed to do when each election is close enough that any loss of support means handing over the presidency to an authoritarian wannabe?
I’m sure many would like to hold him to a higher standard, but the risk of ending up with a fascist as president is way too high.
There you go with the false equivalency.
You can support politicians without doing so blindly and unquestioningly. In fact, complacency like yours is one of the main factors that caused the conditions that made something as bizarrely awful as a Trump candidacy viable.
But you have a two party system?
Are you still going to vote dem then and just keep making empty threats about not voting for them while requesting ceasefire?
What are your other options here?
The only option is to continue to vote for the least-bad candidates, and work to change the voting system such that a two party system is no longer inevitable.
Yeah, because that strategy has been working SO well so far… 🤦
What was it Einstein supposedly said about the definition of insanity?
I mean, the other other option is violence/terrorism.
When peaceful revolution is made impossible, violent revolution is inevitable.
But the outcome is wildly unpredictable. You can easily end up with a worse result than what you had before.
I see that you’re aggressively ignoring the point in favor of the very false dichotomy I’m on the record as fed up with.
To list the thousands of better things to do than either a) reflexively defend Biden no matter how wrong his stance is or b) vote for Trump would take a lot of time and effort better used in other ways than speaking to wilfully deaf ears.
Fortunately, improving my Lemmy experience by adding you to the aforementioned list after adding a user note to remind me why takes significantly less of both than even writing this reply.
You keep avoiding the question. If i don’t know the point you’re making, I can’t be ignoring it.
What is the point you are trying to make here?
I don’t care about all the ways you are not making your point, you’ve listed those already.
The title of the thread reads “no ceasefire, no votes”.
If the Democratic nominee doesn’t win, who wins?
It’s always reduced to a binary choice; a complacency of the mind:
Complacency is “a feeling of smug or uncritical satisfaction with oneself or one’s achievements.” It’s a false belief that you’re doing the right things to advance or improve/maintain your life, when you’re really not. It’s a hostility or antipathy to criticism, self-awareness or soul-searching.
America should strive to do better.
They were in a ceasefire when Hamas attacked. ceasefire doesn’t mean I cease and you fire.
This graphic says they weren’t in a ceasefire.
What is the insinuation? Not enough Israeli deaths?
The point is it takes two to tango for a ceasefire, and I don’t see two.
It’s a graphic depicting years of violence. Insinuating? Your jumping to defend a straw man you’re creating. No one’s attacking you.
No I’m simply stating facts. A ceasefire was inplace when Hamas attacked. Hard to understand?
I understand. This could help.
Help What? What could help is a release of hostages. What could help is stopping rocket barrage. You seem to think that a ceasefire is one sided.
I’m sorry, I was wrong. I think you are referring to the ceasefire in 2021. Ceasefires are conditional though. Meaning, if conditions change, conflict can restart. And either side can decide. There have been many ceasefires in this conflict.
Cease-fire
Unlike declarations of a cessation of hostilities or a truce, a cease-fire is generally meant to be binding. Like a cessation of hostilities or truce, it is only temporary in nature, but is generally expected to last for a longer period of time.
Cease-fires do not announce the end of a conflict, but they are meant to put the opposing parties in communication with one another about potential permanent settlements.
Unlike a truce, a humanitarian pause or a cessation of hostilities, the declaration of a cease-fire often applies to the entire geographical area of a conflict, according to the UN. Source
