It’s just a bourgeois democracy.
How is Trump doing better than them?!!!
Because Trump at least appeals to the feral hog demographic, as opposed to going out of his way to disappoint everyone
Have you seen the average yank
he’s not
“Ukrainian’s deserve a vote” also “democracy is a sham” - pick one, bro
Western implementation of democracy is indeed a sham while the working class majority do deserve a genuine vote is not the contradiction you seem to think it is bro.
And yet you hold up no example. Empty words
Last I checked, China, Vietnam, Cuba, and DPRK exist. I’m sorry that I’ve underestimated the sheer extent of your ignorance on the subject you’re opining on.
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Why not? Both China and the DPRK are democratic, even if their models of democracy are different from liberal democracy.
Oh thank you for educating me on the existence of countries. I shouldn’t have doubted your commitment to honest engagement.
Thank you for admitting you were just trolling earlier and you’re perfectly aware of what the alternatives are.
You seem to lack as much in reading comprehension as you do sense. Accusing people in the comments of trolling when you post these “memes” daily is a nice touch
You seem to have a grudge
aww muffin, I’d be so insulted by that if I had a shred of respect for you
Coalitions? Also not sure how Kid Starver’s number is calculated, labour does have house majority.
They can’t hold elections while at war. Check your own country’s constitution, it’s probably in there too.
Stopping elections for any reason is definitely democratic
Again, constitution.
Don’t seem like very democratic constitution though.
Check your own country’s constitution, it’s probably in there. And you can probably find deliberations by experts (maybe even the people who wrote your constitution) why this makes sense or not. In any case, this is not something they’re going to change while they have much bigger issues.
Check your own country’s constitution, it’s probably in there.
It’s not 👍
Check your own country’s constitution, it’s probably in there.
The ‘just literally say whatever bullshit you want’ superpower
Holding elections now would deprive everyone in the occupied territories of their vote.
That’s real fucking ironic.
The ‘occupied territories’ all voted to have closer ties to Russia but then the government got couped by the west, their political parties were outlawed, their populations were ethnically cleansed, AND THEN THEY VOTED TO BREAK AWAY FROM UKRAINE AND JOIN RUSSIA.
The literal point of the war is to deprive them of their vote.
The “occupied territories” seceded from Kiev and want nothing to do with western Ukraine.
What are these percentages?
The percent of the vote they got into power by?
Lets re-display that not as a percent of merely the turnout, nor merely the electorate, but as a percentage of the entire populations they purport to represent.
They are approval ratings, not electoral results. Bourgeois democracy regularly fails to put popular candidates in power.
if they are
approval ratings
then
doesn’t hold elections
is not like the others in more than the immediately obvious way.
I didn’t make the meme, I am conveying the intent and explaining the numbers.
🎣
multi party system, you get all the shades / 32bit if you like 🙌🏻. two party system result in us vs them (see US), only black and white / 1bit system.
those are leaders of the free and democratic world right there . also why cant zelnsky dress normal
I think it’s deliberately showing: “Guys my country is literally at war right now, I won’t pretend we’re not by keeping up appearances”
The war goes so bad that president of the country somehow lost his every suit to it?
No you’re missing the point. It’s a deliberate choice to not wear “normal” attire. He looks like he could have come from the front or is prepared for physical activity. Symbolizing his country isn’t safe right now. Sure it might be a bit of an act if you’re not in a warzone right now, but at least to me that puts the picture of him / his country being at war in my mind. The fact we are talking about it proves the signal is effective.
He looks like he could have come from the front or is prepared for physical activity
But he don’t, he’s travelling from one luxury hotel to another in entire world to beg for money that are going to his pal’s golden toilets and whatnot.
Sure it might be a bit of an act if you’re not in a warzone right now, but at least to me that puts the picture of him / his country being at war in my mind
It’s an absolute act, if anything it clowns tragedy of people dragged from streets to the front. Also why not uniform then? He’s the commander of all AFU.
The fact we are talking about it proves the signal is effective.
Kinda but again it’s an act, it would be also talked about it if he wore a clown costume or gimpsuit.
why cant zelnsky dress normal
He went to the leaders of the free world store without realizing they cater to giants, which he is not
he’s a method actor
Actually, in a multi party system, it is. If you only have two, or one political flavour you’ll get different results.
The number of parties has fuck all to do with how democratic a particular system is. It’s whose interests the parties represent that matters. In capitalist societies, parties serve the interests of the ruling capital owning class, and the working majority simply gets to pick which member of the exploiting class will rule over them and repress them.
The number of parties influences the percentual result.
You could say that in a 51/49 outcome 49% of the people isn’t represented but it’s still democratic.
I’m Belgian. We hold the world record in government foundations. I know how small percentages work and am pretty sure it’s democracy at work.
Do I like it? Not really, but it still democracy.
Pluralism has nothing to do with whether or not the will of the people is accurately reflected. One party states often have higher democratic representation because the people can more directly influence policy.
Last elections in Poland seen a whooping 17 parties and over 40 independents elected to sejm. However, you could not find a single socialist among them, not to mention communist, all 17 parties and over 40 independents are representing various flavours of liberalism
Excellent point to make. Pluralism isn’t bad in every case, though it can lead to factionalism of course, but the idea that it’s democratic itself is horribly wrong.
Sure. But, the Polish people seem to be happy with a far right representation.
I really don’t care about left or right. I’ve been working with politicians the last 15 years and I’ve met socialist people on the far right and extremely liberal people on the left. The boring centrist seem to get it right more often but they don’t get elected.
I’ve met socialist people on the far right
You make no sense. Please elaborate.
Democracy is a compromise. The irony is that by representing everybody partially you’ll never represent anyone fully.
Democracy is rule by the majority, which really means in practice a country where the working classes are in control. Bourgeois “democracy” guises capitalist control in a cloak of electoralism, obscuring unpopular candidates with positive wins in the realm of capitalist controlled elections.
Dude, half of my country has been ruled by elected socialist for 70 years now. Socialists have been part of the federal government since the 2nd World War and in their prime they formed a purple government together with the liberals.
Our most liberal party is struggling to get enough votes to participate in tge elections. What you’re on about?
PTB has a decent and growing foothold in Belgium, which is fantastic, but that’s about as good as it gets in bourgeois democracy, and speaks more to the effectiveness of parties like the PTB than the effectiveness of bourgeois democracy.
In capitalist societies, parties serve the interests of the ruling capital owning class, and the working majority simply gets to pick which member of the exploiting class will rule over them and repress them.
Would you say that extend to elected representatives and from what background they come? E.g. elected representatives not coming from worker class?
One hand you do recognize it’s the class domination that is the actual problem, the root of all evil, and that a socialist injected into said government is socialist in words, not in deeds (if the class domination is not stopped),
but on the other hand every time I read a post from you, you seem to refuse to notice said class domination, blinded by their government words, in selected countries of your choice (or even acknowledge possibility of said class domination, throwing “whataboutism”).
It is hard to take you seriously.
Do give a concrete example of me ignoring class dominance. It’s hard to take people who just make up unsubstantiated personal attacks instead of engaging in honest discussion seriously. Perhaps, you should actually spend the time to learn about these countries instead of making a clown of yourself in public.
When talking about sham democracies (capitalist “democracies”):
You:
Western implementation of democracy is indeed a sham while the working class majority do deserve a genuine vote is not the contradiction you seem to think it is bro.
Last I checked, China, [cut] exist. I’m sorry that I’ve underestimated the sheer extent of your ignorance on the subject you’re opining on.
(Crossed out Vietnam, Cuba and DPRK because I do not know enough about them).
How is that not ignoring class dominance happening in those countries is beyond me (e.g. https://spectrejournal.com/one-should-not-camouflage-capitalist-and-imperialist-china-as-socialist/ , ).
Gig economy? Up and rising. Literally industrial reserve army of low paid workers whose renumeration is artificially kept low, straight from what Marx foretold. Hukou? Used for the same, rural workers migrating to urban centers where they are not registered and exploited as low wage proletariat. Ownership? Vast majority of business in China, according to China, is privately owned. 80% of urban employment, totally private businesses. Technological cartels, like Pinduoduo. Like this fuckery: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinese-regulator-fines-confiscates-36-billion-yuan-food-delivery-platforms-2026-04-17/
Food delivery platform was scamming people, was actively acting like a damn mafia, was combatative against the police and judiciary, and did not cooperate with the government … and was fined 1.5% of the profit. No person holding actual power in the company C-level suit suffered any consequences. This shit happened in China, as if it was USA.
How can you be so blind is beyond any rational person.
Oh wow, you really think you’ve discovered something groundbreaking here. Yup, nobody has ever heard of contradictions or commodity production under socialism. You’re the first genius to point out that private ownership and wage labor still exist in China. Truly a revelation that would make Marx weep with joy!
The fact that you think socialism means the immediate abolition of every bourgeois relation overnight tells me your understanding of the subject comes from memes and a cursory skimming of a single Wikipedia paragraph. Socialism is not some sort of an utopia handed down from the heavens. It is a transitional society that emerges from capitalism and is therefore stamped with all the birthmarks of the old society. Commodity production, wage differentials, and even the market economy persist precisely because you cannot wave a magic wand and instantaneously create abundance and perfect class consciousness.
China’s gig economy and the hukou system are real problems and nobody with a functioning brain denies that. But the difference between China and a capitalist country is that the state, led by the Communist Party representing the working class, is actively intervening to regulate, reform, and suppress these contradictions. Hokou reforms are a perfect example of this. The food delivery fine you cited, a mere 1.5% of profit, is indeed insufficient and that is a legitimate criticism. But to present that as evidence that China is simply capitalist is to ignore the fact that the government has the legal and political power to improve the situation which is precisely what they are doing. The very fact that the regulator fined them at all, that the public outcry is taken seriously, that the party openly discusses the need to break monopoly capital, is something no bourgeois state would even pretend to do.
You want a socialist society with zero exploitation, zero inequality, and zero contradictions. That is called communism, and it will take a long time to get there. In the meantime, socialist societies are messy, uneven, and full of tensions just like every human society that has ever existed. That is an argument against socialism that only a person with an utterly infantile understanding of politics and economics could make. Your gotcha list just proves you have the analytical depth of a child.
Who is the third from the left?PS: Sorry that was politically incorrect, let me rephrase my question: Who is the second from the far right?
Kier Starmer, aka Kid Starver and Kiev Sturmer
Aka Queer Harmer
And the reason they haven’t had an elections is because they don’t want this guy to be in charge?
I wonder if I’ll be down voted?
My favorite trope is how libs will inevitably start screeching about Russia when faced with the fact that their ideology is midwifing fascism.
Maybe i can think your meme is dumb while also agreeing that the people pictured are libs that I don’t like. I just don’t like dishonesty and your meme is just a dishonest smear instead of something with legitimate or logical basis. You’re crowing about how societies self-govern while under invasion and idk how anyone other than fellow leftists are supposed to glean any meaning from this. How would your society select its leaders and continue to operate under such circumstances? I’m noticing the lack of any ideas being expressed here other than “liberals bad”, which we all already know. This meme is just a lazy preach-to-the-choir meme and a waste of your propaganda efforts, really.
The only dishonesty here is in your own comment. We know what alternative systems to liberalism are, and there existing socialist states today. Pretending like nothing better is possible and nobody is offering any alternatives is the height of dishonesty.
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Anybody who starts talking about Russia to distract from what’s happening in their own liberal state descending into fascism is indeed a lib. It’s amazing how intellectually impoverished you people are that you think your transparent straw man is going to convince anyone. Nobody was talking about Russia here at all. It doesn’t matter what Russia is like, that’s not the standard you’re being held to. But of course liberal have no standards and stand for absolutely nothing.
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not a liberal, btw
definitely a neoliberal
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if platner can call himself a leftist; you too can call yourself a communist despite espousing unquestionably neoliberal points of view. lol
lmfao nobody is supporting fascism to own the libs here, that’s just an idiotic straw man you came up with being utterly unable to engage with the argument honestly
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You’re the only one talking about modern Russia here further highlighting your utter lack of intellectual integrity. Pathetic.
What I find more amusing is that either is idiots trying to talk about Putin/Russia or people focusing on “doesn’t hold elections”, few people talking about the other leaders with abysmal approval.
It’s always deflection with libs, these people are utterly incapable of honestly engaging with any criticism.
You’re saying that of they held an election, people would either vote for Putin or someone that is pro Russia? I thought Ukraine was united against him…
This totally makes sense if we consider the fact that many westerners don’t consider nonwesterners to be people.
Colonizers can’t choose the presidents of sovereign nations anymore, the people there do the choosing now, and that makes the colonizers furious.
140% of the people choose Putin every time
Why make up obvious lies? Truth not in your favor?
Did putin pay you to say that
Do you really, genuinely believe that 140% bullshit?
Genuine psychosis at this point
I’m confused by the comment? Putin is trying to colonize Ukraine. Putin mad because they had a free election to elect the person who is holding his own against an ageing wana be world power in a war going on for years that was supposed to be over in days. Also Putin rig’s his own elections so him demanding is bit well, fix your own shit before you fix someone else. Oh wait Putin does fix his own elections.
Oh so many downvotes. Boot licking Putin fanbots roam wild over here.
The Russian Federation is not trying to colonize Ukraine. Their goal is NATO neutrality, and annexation of the four oblasts, which are largely pro-Russian. This is a response to the ethnic repressions against Russians in the Donbass following the coup of Yanukovych in 2014, and the ensuing secession of Donetsk and Luhansk and the civil war that followed.
The war was never supposed to be over in days. This was circulated as a means to humiliate Russia, but all talks of an attack lasting days either came from many years before 2022, or from the west.
As for Putin rigging elections, this might be true, but we also know that he is legitimately popular in Russia. The nationalists are most popular, followed by the communists. The pro-western liberals like Navalny was are in the minority and have no real support base.
The amounts of war crimes alone, even if we were to accept that whole ‘supressing NATO’ excuse, which is bullshit, are enough to stop any goodwill towards Russia.
Wiki article with the whole Putin talk video
It was bullshit all along, and Ukraine would ignore NATO if Russia left it alone, which they never did, and ignored previous peace deals, yada yada, you don’t care anyway.
Talking about popularity in any state without free media is always a joke, including in US.
Kiev has committed massive numbers of war crimes. If your point is that committing war crimes should be a measuring stick, and the side with fewer war crimes is correct, then this is horribly reductive. Ukraine was fine with Russia until the west backed a coup in 2014 and empowered neofascists, this is why the whole civil war erupted and transitioned to war with Russia in 2022.
As for popularity, no state has “free media.” The people legitimately support Putin, in general, though the communists have been gaining ground.
What war crimes has Ukraine commited?
From the thread I linked elsewhere:
- https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/40th-periodic-report-human-rights-situation-ukraine-treatment-prisoners
- https://www.npr.org/2023/01/31/1152743054/human-rights-watch-ukraine-landmines
- CNN coverage of Donbas in 2014 https://xcancel.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
- UN finds no genocide https://news.yahoo.com/un-commission-fails-evidence-russias-160057021.html
- https://mronline.org/2023/07/30/russia-donbass-and-the-reality-of-the-conflict-in-ukraine/
- Stoltenberg admits NATO was in Ukraine since 2014 https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211698.htm
- https://www.kanekoa.news/p/osce-reports-reveal-ukraine-started
- HRW https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
- Donbas documentary 2016 https://youtube.com/watch?v=bN68OfFKaWs
- clip from the doc https://odysee.com/@justsomeclips:2/trade-union-burning-2014:8
- Ukraine in Donbas https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2022/08/10/what-ive-seen-of-ukraines-war-crimes-against-civilians-in-the-donbass-over-the-years/
- https://thegrayzone.com/2023/09/06/ukraines-arms-supplier-maidan-massacre/
- Poroshenko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk
Essentially, killing civilians, torturing prisoners, shelling civilian areas, similar tactics to the IDF with respect to the Donbass.
Ukraine would ignore NATO if Russia left it alone
It’s entirely not Ukraine’s choice. The west through institutes like the NED couped the government in 2014 with this end goal in mind (a spear tip against Russia and another block in the containment). If the banderites through some act of god decided to return to being neutral like yanukovych they’d just get couped again and replaced with the next down the list group happy to sacrifice as many Ukrainians as it takes to satisfy their western backers.
This goes against my current view of the situation. The NATO expansion is somewhat understandable, not enough for a war perhaps, but unsure.
Care to point me in the direction to read more about this?
What in particular do you question? It’s a complex and ongoing subject, so there’s no one-stop shop for it. The closest I can do is point you to threads like this one.
Thanks, exactly what I was looking for! 😄 As a Norwegian pretty much everyone sides with Ukraine, and I have not really challenged that view for myself. I have just accepted the narrative “Russia = imperialistic & bad. Ukraine = democracy & good”. So it’s probably a good idea to try to understand it
Good on you for being open to non-western propaganda sources. Curiosity seems to be mostly dead in the lemmy liberal scene.
Understandable! It’s one of the more difficult topics for westerners like us to grasp, and it took me some time to come around to the ML consensus on the Russian Federation (ie, it isn’t imperialist if we accept Lenin’s analysis, and actually is anti imperialist even if run by bourgeois oligarchs).
Wow, it’s like I’m on reddit all over again. Propaganda hits hard.
Can you elaborate? Since when did Reddit have a sizable communist userbase?
I said the absolute contrary. There’s nothing communist about Russia nowadays. It’s as capitalist as it gets.
Of course Russia is no longer socialist. My point is that what I said is the standard communist stance on the Russian Federation, that of critical support.
No way!!! No one told us!!!
You’re overthinking it, my comment was purely about the picture you posted
And the picture was about the issue at hand
Nope, it wasn’t.
You know the meme with the donkey with swirly eyes screaming “RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA”?
That’s what the picture reminded me of.
Nobody who understands how elections work would ever post this.
It’s embarassing, and quite obviously centered around Zelenskyy, with also unfair title, as if it’s his fault.
It’s not, fuck you and anyone who defends this.
And yes, the whole ML is such a sad excuse of a russian propaganda.
If there was ever a psyop to bury any chance of a communist revolution, this is it.
Why would Marxism-Leninism be a psyop to prevent communist revolution when it’s been by far the most successful ideology and methodology for establishing socialism in history?
Communists are a psyop to turn you against the guys wearing swastikas and killing 14,000 unarmed people, because there will never be a communist revolution if we don’t support those guys.
when embarassing, and unfair, and fuck you, and sad, and russian propaganda, and psyop
= when the loser is sore
You are the master of fractal wrongness.
I wasn’t aware that intergalactic law required all elections to include Vladimir Putin on the ballot. And are you suggesting everybody would vote for him if he was an option?
Yes, I think they are trying to say people would vote pro-russian (which they did, hence the maidan coup), but Putin bad because no democracy, so therefore Ukraine had to get rid of democracy, to save democracy. Perfectly good lib logic.
I’m so tired of doing a poll at work for where to get lunch and Putin winning.
He does make a good borscht.
Putin was chosen by Russian oligarchs after the second sovereign default in 10 years.
He used to carry luggage for the mayor of St Petersburg, Sobchak.
An Islamic caliphate started a civil war in the South of Russia before he was chosen, this is why Russian oligarchs needed a man with a military backgound.
Putin is Democratic or what.
whataboutism
it’s the real and only reason, you know, being attacked in a war
At least he isnt winning at the polls with 140% of the vote
He’s not winning at the polls at all!
We already understand that, the point is that bourgeois democracy is a farce, as it leads to deeply unpopular figures getting elected. Socialist democracy is necessary.
With these numbers, they should be holding new elections.
Though I do agree,
the opinion numbers should be put side at side with election numbers
to showcase how little these politicians care about approval rates once in power.
Democracy is when the majority of voters hate the government and the greater that majority is the more democratic it is.
