Conservatives love to hate on AOC, no one is perfect indeed. But everytime I ask to point me to one specific thing she said they disagree with, it’s always crickets
I’ve seen “center-right” conservatives call her the MTG of the left. Their idea of the political spectrum is completely bunkers.
U.S politics is so fucking to the right that Biden (actual center-right), AOC (socialist), Hillary (neoliberal), and Bernie (social democrat), are all considered “radicals” by a base of morons. The actual radicals (e.g : communists, anarchists, libertarian) are not even in the picture. Right-wing radicals is absolutely in the picture though, so I guess they need to manufacture a reason to exist.
US politics are hyper polarized and she’s a great face for the Dems and she’s often in the spotlight becuase if it by both sides. I’ve brought this up in conversation with someone that “hated” her and I really felt like I got to him how skewed our views are by media bubbles.
Good for you on being able to shed light on the media bubble thing. I have a conservative friend who was talking about “all the schools teaching critical race theory”, and specifically how they’re teaching kids that “all white people are are bad and evil and you should be ashamed”. She assured me that it is definitely 100% happening because she sees news talking about it, and didn’t at all seem to understand what I was saying about a few events getting skewed way out of proportion by media shills.
Not a conservative, but that’s not particularly hard, so I’ll play Devil’s advocate.
AOC is idealistic, but sometimes naive and ill informed.
She referred to a statue of Father Damian as an example of white supremacist culture. Damien spent the last 16 years of his life ministering to a leper colony on Hawaii, acted as a doctor, dug graves, eventually contracted leprosy, and died as a consequence of it. Lili’uokalani herself honoured him. He is honoured to this day in Hawaii.
Calling a statue honouring a man who died helping non-white people, in the anything but enlightened 19th century, an example of white supremacy comparable to statues of racist leaders of the confederacy is absurd. Lincoln was more of a white supremacist than someone like Damien. If anything, if people followed Damien’s example, the world would be a better and less racist place. It’s also a self-own, that was widely reported on in right wing media, helping them to support their narrative that it’s wrong to remove statues of bonafide racists. “See! They call all white men racists!”
The not wearing a mask thing and crossing state lines in the middle of an epidemic, then contracting covid? Also not a good look. Once again, widely reported on in right wing media. “See, she isn’t a wearing a mask either. She’s a hypocrite!”
I personally also find AOC’s self lack of knowledge or clear positions on foreign policy troubling, if unsurprising. IRC she also voted against seizing the assets of Russian oligarchs, which I found troubling. Her excuse for that, something about civil forfeiture, also seemed to suggest she hadn’t properly read the bill, as it only applied to non-US nationals, and not Americans like she claimed.
This is a terrible take. There is plenty she says that conservatives disagree with. She does not have the same policy goals as conservatives…obviously. She would say the same thing.
Examples:
She has called Capitalism “irredeemable” which many capitalists would disagree with.
She supports single payer Healthcare when others believe competition builds a better system overall, or believe Healthcare isn’t an appropriate role of government.
She believes in a federal job guarantee when some think the government can encourage employment and welfare in other ways more effectively, or believe that isn’t the role of government.
She believes in canceling all outstanding student loan debt when others believe there are more effective ways to help the needy more specifically, or believe those with college degrees should be low on the priority list for assistance, or believe people should be on the hook for loans they took out.
Obviously there are arguments for all of her positions, YOU might agree with all of them, but the idea that no conservative can give any examples of things they disagree with her about is absurd and laughable.
This is a great point as well, but I think a large point they were trying to make is conservatives have made a point of hating her and making her a point of their ridicule with almost no solid basis to stand on.
They just react to her name and initials as a dog whistle, without any of the reasons you’ve listed.
They think it’s super cool and alpha when when of their guys gets weawwy angwy and indignant, but when the Other Team does it then they’re just being insufferable bitches. Absolutely no further thought put into it than that.
His point (as I understood it) wasn’t necessarily that conservatives have nothing to disagree with her about, but that a lot of the people espousing hate for her don’t actually have firm rational reasons for doing so, and are just hating on her because they were told she’s bad by their favorite politicians, commentators, news media, etc.
Which frankly seems accurate for a reasonable amount of her critics based on the discourse I’ve personally seen surrounding her.
And that’s even before we get into the weird thing a lot of conservatives have about her appearance…
I never made an argument about her beliefs, only her ability to effectively realize them. The original argument seemed to imply the people can’t offer up real reasons to dislike her. Her policy to me isn’t her problem. I don’t currently see her as an example of someone who can actually get things done. That might change over time, but that’s my criticism of AOC and why her level of popularity doesn’t really make much sense to me other than…populists say things the base likes to hear. Again, talk it cheap.
What accomplishments has she had that you’re particularly excited about? I know people love her but people love populists, and when I think of AOC that’s what I see. Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see her as an effective legislator. Just someone who says things the base likes to hear. Very unpopular here but I feel that way about Bernie too. Makes great points but doesn’t know how to actually navigate Congress and get any of it accomplished. Put up bills that are only supported by a small minority and make no efforts to actually build proper coalitions to get things passed. The best leaders in legislature are often not the most well known or vocal, but the ones who can put up policy, build a coalition around it, and get things passed. Despite what people might think of Biden, he’s someone who knows how to do that. Talk is cheap and being a populist is easy.
Because none of her policies have actually gone anywhere. I appreciate she shows up to vote for other policy and can be a part of a broader coalition, but she has not proven to me she is able to actually push her own legislation and build a viable coalition to get things passed. When I vote for a candidate I look for two things. Their policy positions align with my own, and they have the ability to move policy. She, so far, ticks just one of those boxes. She’s also young and can very well figure it out over time.
It’s sad you’re getting downvoted because this is a great point… it’s also depressing because politics is corrupt bullshit… but since that’s never going to change short of our country going full France/let them eat cake, I guess we need people that can work in the system…
I would even venture to say re: Bernie that he is actually a negative since what he proposes is too “radical” from the current status quo and it ruins any chance he has to get traction. Sadly, change won’t come over night… it’s going to take lots of little steps to get there.
It’s weird that “radical” Bernie Sanders has policies that the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the aisle support. We just have some shitty voters.
I’m glad that an inability to understand nuance and have a helpful discussion wasn’t just a Reddit thing but apparently exists here as well! Reminds me why I almost exclusively lurked and avoided any posts that weren’t just talking about stuff people in the sub enjoyed… at least I’m finding out early that I need to just shut up and avoid trying to have discussions.
In response to your post, which will probably be the last engagement I have in this thread…
I put “radical” in quotes as compared to what the current status quo is (which I am not supporting FTR). We are in late stage capitalism… we are being controlled by the rich. Our government is corrupt and garbage… and to go from this to what Bernie wants is absolutely radical. Is it bad? Not generally IMHO. But is it a massive departure from where we’re at now? Yes.
As to your statement that his policies are supported by “the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the aisle”… where do you pull this data from? Because if we only had “some” shitty voters I find it hard to believe we’d be where we’re at now… but maybe I’m wrong… that just seems like one of these “sounds good, but is ultimately based on nothing real” internet takes that people like to throw around…
I won’t spend too much time responding, as your seem to be taking your ball and going home, even though I wasn’t arguing with you, weird that it came across that way. Anyway, it’s easy to google this.
Here’s a quote from politifact:
For each of those issues except single-payer health care, a more modest percentage of all Americans — but still a majority — signal their support.
Conservatives love to hate on AOC, no one is perfect indeed. But everytime I ask to point me to one specific thing she said they disagree with, it’s always crickets
I’ve seen “center-right” conservatives call her the MTG of the left. Their idea of the political spectrum is completely bunkers.
U.S politics is so fucking to the right that Biden (actual center-right), AOC (socialist), Hillary (neoliberal), and Bernie (social democrat), are all considered “radicals” by a base of morons. The actual radicals (e.g : communists, anarchists, libertarian) are not even in the picture. Right-wing radicals is absolutely in the picture though, so I guess they need to manufacture a reason to exist.
US politics are hyper polarized and she’s a great face for the Dems and she’s often in the spotlight becuase if it by both sides. I’ve brought this up in conversation with someone that “hated” her and I really felt like I got to him how skewed our views are by media bubbles.
Good for you on being able to shed light on the media bubble thing. I have a conservative friend who was talking about “all the schools teaching critical race theory”, and specifically how they’re teaching kids that “all white people are are bad and evil and you should be ashamed”. She assured me that it is definitely 100% happening because she sees news talking about it, and didn’t at all seem to understand what I was saying about a few events getting skewed way out of proportion by media shills.
how i have an idiot in my life that calls her “the democrat version of trump” and it blows my mind he truly believes this
There is a place for spokespeople to help move people but the job of a congressperson is to move policy.
Not a conservative, but that’s not particularly hard, so I’ll play Devil’s advocate.
AOC is idealistic, but sometimes naive and ill informed.
She referred to a statue of Father Damian as an example of white supremacist culture. Damien spent the last 16 years of his life ministering to a leper colony on Hawaii, acted as a doctor, dug graves, eventually contracted leprosy, and died as a consequence of it. Lili’uokalani herself honoured him. He is honoured to this day in Hawaii.
Calling a statue honouring a man who died helping non-white people, in the anything but enlightened 19th century, an example of white supremacy comparable to statues of racist leaders of the confederacy is absurd. Lincoln was more of a white supremacist than someone like Damien. If anything, if people followed Damien’s example, the world would be a better and less racist place. It’s also a self-own, that was widely reported on in right wing media, helping them to support their narrative that it’s wrong to remove statues of bonafide racists. “See! They call all white men racists!”
The not wearing a mask thing and crossing state lines in the middle of an epidemic, then contracting covid? Also not a good look. Once again, widely reported on in right wing media. “See, she isn’t a wearing a mask either. She’s a hypocrite!”
I personally also find AOC’s self lack of knowledge or clear positions on foreign policy troubling, if unsurprising. IRC she also voted against seizing the assets of Russian oligarchs, which I found troubling. Her excuse for that, something about civil forfeiture, also seemed to suggest she hadn’t properly read the bill, as it only applied to non-US nationals, and not Americans like she claimed.
This is a terrible take. There is plenty she says that conservatives disagree with. She does not have the same policy goals as conservatives…obviously. She would say the same thing.
Examples:
She has called Capitalism “irredeemable” which many capitalists would disagree with.
She supports single payer Healthcare when others believe competition builds a better system overall, or believe Healthcare isn’t an appropriate role of government.
She believes in a federal job guarantee when some think the government can encourage employment and welfare in other ways more effectively, or believe that isn’t the role of government.
She believes in canceling all outstanding student loan debt when others believe there are more effective ways to help the needy more specifically, or believe those with college degrees should be low on the priority list for assistance, or believe people should be on the hook for loans they took out.
Obviously there are arguments for all of her positions, YOU might agree with all of them, but the idea that no conservative can give any examples of things they disagree with her about is absurd and laughable.
This is a great point as well, but I think a large point they were trying to make is conservatives have made a point of hating her and making her a point of their ridicule with almost no solid basis to stand on.
They just react to her name and initials as a dog whistle, without any of the reasons you’ve listed.
They think it’s super cool and alpha when when of their guys gets weawwy angwy and indignant, but when the Other Team does it then they’re just being insufferable bitches. Absolutely no further thought put into it than that.
His point (as I understood it) wasn’t necessarily that conservatives have nothing to disagree with her about, but that a lot of the people espousing hate for her don’t actually have firm rational reasons for doing so, and are just hating on her because they were told she’s bad by their favorite politicians, commentators, news media, etc.
Which frankly seems accurate for a reasonable amount of her critics based on the discourse I’ve personally seen surrounding her.
And that’s even before we get into the weird thing a lot of conservatives have about her appearance…
Correct ^
I never made an argument about her beliefs, only her ability to effectively realize them. The original argument seemed to imply the people can’t offer up real reasons to dislike her. Her policy to me isn’t her problem. I don’t currently see her as an example of someone who can actually get things done. That might change over time, but that’s my criticism of AOC and why her level of popularity doesn’t really make much sense to me other than…populists say things the base likes to hear. Again, talk it cheap.
What accomplishments has she had that you’re particularly excited about? I know people love her but people love populists, and when I think of AOC that’s what I see. Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see her as an effective legislator. Just someone who says things the base likes to hear. Very unpopular here but I feel that way about Bernie too. Makes great points but doesn’t know how to actually navigate Congress and get any of it accomplished. Put up bills that are only supported by a small minority and make no efforts to actually build proper coalitions to get things passed. The best leaders in legislature are often not the most well known or vocal, but the ones who can put up policy, build a coalition around it, and get things passed. Despite what people might think of Biden, he’s someone who knows how to do that. Talk is cheap and being a populist is easy.
Why don’t you see her as an effective legislator? You make very broad points with not much content, you speak like a politician
Because none of her policies have actually gone anywhere. I appreciate she shows up to vote for other policy and can be a part of a broader coalition, but she has not proven to me she is able to actually push her own legislation and build a viable coalition to get things passed. When I vote for a candidate I look for two things. Their policy positions align with my own, and they have the ability to move policy. She, so far, ticks just one of those boxes. She’s also young and can very well figure it out over time.
It’s sad you’re getting downvoted because this is a great point… it’s also depressing because politics is corrupt bullshit… but since that’s never going to change short of our country going full France/let them eat cake, I guess we need people that can work in the system…
I would even venture to say re: Bernie that he is actually a negative since what he proposes is too “radical” from the current status quo and it ruins any chance he has to get traction. Sadly, change won’t come over night… it’s going to take lots of little steps to get there.
It’s weird that “radical” Bernie Sanders has policies that the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the aisle support. We just have some shitty voters.
I’m glad that an inability to understand nuance and have a helpful discussion wasn’t just a Reddit thing but apparently exists here as well! Reminds me why I almost exclusively lurked and avoided any posts that weren’t just talking about stuff people in the sub enjoyed… at least I’m finding out early that I need to just shut up and avoid trying to have discussions.
In response to your post, which will probably be the last engagement I have in this thread…
I put “radical” in quotes as compared to what the current status quo is (which I am not supporting FTR). We are in late stage capitalism… we are being controlled by the rich. Our government is corrupt and garbage… and to go from this to what Bernie wants is absolutely radical. Is it bad? Not generally IMHO. But is it a massive departure from where we’re at now? Yes.
As to your statement that his policies are supported by “the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the aisle”… where do you pull this data from? Because if we only had “some” shitty voters I find it hard to believe we’d be where we’re at now… but maybe I’m wrong… that just seems like one of these “sounds good, but is ultimately based on nothing real” internet takes that people like to throw around…
I won’t spend too much time responding, as your seem to be taking your ball and going home, even though I wasn’t arguing with you, weird that it came across that way. Anyway, it’s easy to google this. Here’s a quote from politifact: