🖤 ANTI-META FEDI PACT 🖤
fedipact.online

It’s a pact to block Meta (as in Facebook) run instances if they appear. Obviously up to @Dave to sign, but wondering what people think

  • Dave@lemmy.nzM
    15·
    2 years ago

    My though process goes something like this:

    1. Good! Here’s a big central entry point to the Fediverse, it solves the issue of people being confused by a big list of instances and not knowing where to start.
    2. Wait, doesn’t this mean that they can push ads out to people not on meta. Like, if you are following @steve@meta.com, then you could see posts from steve “[sponsored] download the super app game” because Meta are in control of what posts they push out to followers.
    3. But the Fediverse runs on a protocol ActivityPub, which can be compared to email. Who suffers if you block everyone on your email server from being able to email Gmail addresses? All you’ll get is people leaving the server
    4. But if Meta have such a big part of the userbase, and people not on Meta come to rely on it, what happens when Meta defederates (which will probably happen)? What if Meta propose a change to the protocol, will everyone have to follow their lead? Isn’t that a massive problem (like how almost all browsers are now based on Chrome)?
    5. But if a big competitor comes in the meantime (e.g. Google), doesn’t that mean we’ll have two big networks that connect with each other, so Meta has less power?

    So in conclusion, I have no idea whether this is a good thing. But I don’t see a good reason to block them. After all, if you personally don’t want to follow users on Meta then just… don’t? They are building a Mastodon/Twitter-like platform rather than a Lemmy-like platform, so the immediate impacts are more to Mastodon, so we can wait and watch and see what happens.

    • Kaldo@kbin.social
      8·
      2 years ago

      I have step 6. for you - big giants come into the fediverse, you have meta, google, microsoft or whoever else. In the eyes of users these become the main legit instances in the same way that gmail. hotmail, protonmail became for email. Everyone else is blocked by default for safety reasons, or refuses to use the AP that is now dictated by meta or google, or overwhelmed by the amount of traffic or straight up spam and bots and so users just go with the path of least resistance and create their accounts on the “legit”, “safe”, instances where all the biggest, popular communities exist anyway. The (ad)free fediverse remains a niche and we who stay on it look like the “old man yelling at cloud” meme.

      But I’m a pessimist, who knows what will happen. A month ago I had no idea this place even existed so I’m not that clever of a person, time will tell. I think the best thing we can do is establish our unified presence on the fediverse before meta gets to do it, then they can’t dictate the tempo.

    • SamC@lemmy.nzOP
      6·
      2 years ago

      It’s not clear exactly what they’re building, but the product is apparently called “Threads”.

      The big worry is embrace, extend, extinguish, which Facebook and Google did to XMPP. Seems likely Facebook will try the same strategy with the fediverse.

      • Dave@lemmy.nzM
        2·
        2 years ago

        Ooh, ok, the article I read about it was a couple of weeks back. It didn’t mention a name. People seem to think they are trying to capitalise on the twitter collapse, but “Threads” sounds more like reddit. It might be something more like facebook groups/pages, where you can follow a brand or celebrity, they make posts, and people can reply under them?

        I’m interested to see it, but I don’t really use facebook so probably won’t use it but will probably look at it.

        The big worry is embrace, extend, extinguish, which Facebook and Google did to XMPP. Seems likely Facebook will try the same strategy with the fediverse.

        Yeah, I get that. But I’m not sure refusing to federate with them really does much. Meta will make deals with some big instances that have celebrities on them, then people will flood there and lots of people will be on the Meta one. I don’t really believe in the “it’s not going to make a difference so why do it” idea in general, but I’m not really sure what the intention is to refuse to federate. At a later point when Meta starts trying to push others into a protocol change to suit them, then people can split then. Significant numbers of people will leave, and Mastodon/Fediverse will be a niche little platform hardly anyone users - but that’s what it is now.

        • Ignacio@kbin.social
          2·
          2 years ago

          Remember that you can also create threads on Twitter. So, hence the name. And according to some media, screenshots show interaction with Mastodon users. I don’t think it’ll be a threat for Lemmy/Kbin, PeerTube, Funkwhale or other services, but if any danger or threat, it would be for Mastodon, Pleroma, Misskey, Akkoma, Calckey, and maybe Friendica and Pixelfed. But it’s too early to create facts. I need tangible or visible evidences, not speculations.

          • Dave@lemmy.nzM
            1·
            2 years ago

            Ah thanks, I’m not very familiar with Twitter.

            One thing to remember is that people can subscribe to communities and comment on posts (maybe make posts) from Mastodon. So we may start seeing Meta users on Lemmy.

              • Dave@lemmy.nzM
                2·
                2 years ago

                Thanks for confirming. I know I’ve seen people commenting from Mastodon but didn’t think I’d seen any posts.

    • gibberish_driftwood@lemmy.nz
      3·
      2 years ago

      I’m not (yet) convinced that blocking would be useful, but just some random thoughts …

      Who suffers if you block everyone on your email server from being able to email Gmail addresses? All you’ll get is people leaving the server

      Facebook kind of did something similar to this with email in the past and it worked out great for Facebook. It used to have a really nice email gateway, where you’d get email-notified if someone sent you a message in Facebook. You could simply hit Reply to the email, without having to go back to Facebook and log in. Facebook would cleanly translate your response back into the in-Facebook conversation. Then Facebook hit some kind of critical mass of users and removed the feature. After that you had to go to Facebook to participate in conversations with all your friends and communities who were now living inside Facebook. Then it made it even harder to do it through its mobile site, meaning that at least if you wanted to interact from a mobile device you’d probably have to install and use its Messenger app to keep communicating at all. (Yes there are ways around this, but not ways easy and intuitive for most people.)

      There’s a short history of mega-corporations trying to take over the internet or computer-connected communities or whatever. More than 20 years ago, Microsoft was trying to create “The Microsoft Network”. It was like an alternative internet mostly disconnected from the real internet, and it was hoping everything would shift into this Microsoft-controlled thing, paying Microsoft a subscription, and that the original internet would die out. Everyone using Windows would have a way in, and it tried to incentivise users to join by paying certain companies like Paramount(?) to (only example I remember) put all their Star Trek fan content there. It failed dismally in the end, and the name’s been re-used since for completely different things. After that Microsoft got into the browser wars, and was very criticised for its “embrace and extend” policies around stuff like Java and HTML+Javascript that made it possible to often-accidentally develop stuff that’d only work in MS software. A generation or two later, though, Microsoft has come back and hugely embraced lots of open source software and development. With the whole cloud hosting side of the business it’s found a way it can co-exist and collaborate more positively.

      Before Microsoft, IBM was the big evil mega-corporation, but by the time Microsoft was trying to destroy open source communities and protocols around in the late 90s onwards, IBM was majorly investing in Linux and other open source development, and rolling out those systems as a business model.

      Meta’s evil and destructive now, and Mark Zuckerberg seems disturbingly weird on several levels, but corporations change and some day Meta might not be as bad.

      • Dave@lemmy.nzM
        3·
        2 years ago

        One concern I have is I guess related to gatekeeping. The fediverse is open and connected. If people on “Threads” start learning more about the Fediverse and how you can follow people on other platforms, they will want to start connecting. If they find out you’re on another platform and they know that they should be able to connect, you will end up in a weird conversation about how yes they use a platform that can connect with “Threads” but you can’t connect, because the platform has decided to block Meta. “Why?” Oh because “Threads” isn’t a real part of the Fediverse, yes the Fediverse is open and anyone can create an instance and they can all join together, but we have decided not to connect with Meta because we don’t feel like it’s really part of the Fediverse and we are worried that they will ruin the feel of it all.

        The Fediverse is open and connected, and instances have the right to choose who they federate with, but I don’t believe being a big company is necessarily a good reason not to federate. If the Fediverse gets big, I feel big companies running nodes are a necessary part.

        I totally get that a big company creating a proprietary platform that connects seems to go against the spirit, but if we want our friends and family to use the Fediverse then I think it’s a necessary evil.

        This is of course just a point in time opinion. We have the luxury of watching what happens before it starts to affect us too bad.

        By the way I appreciated the history lesson. I am familiar with the Microsoft Network, but it was more of a website with news etc when I got there. It’s interesting to know how they started!

        • gibberish_driftwood@lemmy.nz
          2·
          2 years ago

          It’s interesting to know how they started! Oh yeah. (Sorry second response.) It’s sort of depressing that Facebook’s succeeded where Microsoft failed all that time ago.

          Monopolising the network space for everyone’s interactions was a progression of the MS-software-on-every-desktop philosophy, but they tried it too early. They probably also cared too much about where the money was going to come from, and maybe also had an incompatible sense of ethics compared with Zuckerberg’s generation of executives.

        • gibberish_driftwood@lemmy.nz
          2·
          2 years ago

          I totally get that a big company creating a proprietary platform that connects seems to go against the spirit, but if we want our friends and family to use the Fediverse then I think it’s a necessary evil.

          I’m really new to the Fediverse and this campaign, but if it doesn’t already exist then I wonder if what’s really needed is just a generally agreed code of conduct, rather than an outright and very specific banning of Meta or some other company people don’t trust. As in, if you act within these stated boundaries then you can expect most others out there will be happy to federate with you, but if you don’t then expect to be cut off without apology.

          Maybe project92 from Meta already fails the test of what people are comfortable with, but is the test clearly written down somewhere? Is there some kind of organised body of admins to organise its management and evolution?

          • Dave@lemmy.nzM
            2·
            2 years ago

            I guess there are multiple pieces here.

            First is the ActivityPub protocol. This can be compared to the Email protocol (there are actually multiple, but I’ll try to keep it simple). ActivityPub is not a website or a platform, but a way for servers to talk to each other to share social media type information. It seems fromthis wikipedia article that the standard is now published by W3C, who handle most of the commonly used standards for the web.

            Then there is the site Mastodon. Mastodon is a twitter-like site, and it uses ActivityPub to allow one site to talk to another. Mastodon is open source, in which anyone with the necessary skills can contribute code. But the ultimate decider of what goes into the software is “Mastodon gGmbH”, a non-profit from Germany.

            Then we have Lemmy, which is a reddit-like site that also uses the ActivityPub protocol to allow one site to talk to another. Lemmy is also open source, but unlike Mastodon there is not an organisation behind it, just a small group of core developers. But because it is open source, if something were to happen (changes people didn’t like, developers hit by bus, etc) then it is easy enough to copy the code and new developers can start working on it.

            Then there’s the facebook platform apparently called "Threads. This is proprietary, no one knows the code and it’s not shared or open. Facebook have basically built their own independent platform, except for one little difference: it supports ActivityPub.

            I’m really new to the Fediverse and this campaign, but if it doesn’t already exist then I wonder if what’s really needed is just a generally agreed code of conduct

            The question is, who writes this code of conduct? It’s not really up to ActivityPub, they created a way for servers to talk, they aren’t involved in content at all.

            Lemmy could create a code of conduct. They can’t force it on all Mastodon servers, because the code is open source so anyone can copy it and make their own service. But even if they could, what happens when a user from Mastodon starts commenting on a Lemmy post? If Mastodon isn’t following the code of conduct, do they have to try to somehow block all Mastodon servers? How would you even do this, when anyone can stand up a new server at any time, and make small or large changes to the code at any time?

            Ok, so maybe that’s hard but it’s easier with Facebook, with their big central server model. Who writes the code of conduct that Facebook has to follow? How do you get approval from the 100+ different platforms using the ActivityPub protocol spread across over 40,000 different servers?

            Does facebook get a say in the code of conduct? After all, they will let their users follow people on other servers and vice versa. If they do get a say, won’t they have massive sway? If they don’t then how is it any different from some servers blocking them and others not?

            The problem with the fediverse is the same thing that makes it what it is: It’s open to anyone, and no one controls it.

            Therefore I just don’t believe you could identify who should write a code of conduct, and even if you could, you’d have to persuade 40,000 servers to join in. This at it’s core is not much different from a petition to have servers block facebook.

            If say Mastodon wrote a code of conduct, they might have the sway to get lots of servers to adopt it - but when facebook inevitably break it, they have very little power to do anything about it.

            Sorry this is a bit of a rambly post, but the short answer is that I just don’t think there is a logical organisation to write a code of conduct, and even if there were, they would have no power of enforcement so you’d have to work that out first.

            • gibberish_driftwood@lemmy.nz
              2·
              2 years ago

              Thanks and I don’t pretend to have useful ideas. In my head I thinking of something along the lines of the Free Software Foundation producing the GPL, and happening to have the synergy with enough devs out there that lots of them (obviously not all) adopted it. Probably not as great a fit after your explanation, though.

              • Dave@lemmy.nzM
                1·
                2 years ago

                Some organisation might try it, I wouldn’t be surprised. But I would say there is not a cohesive view about what the Fediverse is for or what it should look like. It grew organically and no one is directing it in a particular direction.

  • witless@lemmy.nz
    8·
    2 years ago

    At first glance I think it’s a kneejerk reaction. Most of the people here are pretty tech savvy and are here because they’re not interested in centralised systems, so they’re going to be able to decide on their own whether or not to block company-owned instances.

    But… there’s precedence there. Facebook/Meta might not have the trail of bodies that Google has but I don’t think anyone is foolish enough to think there’s anything sincere or philanthropic in their motives. The fact that they’re putting everything behind an NDA seems directly opposite to the entire ethos of the fediverse, which isn’t a great start.

    I think an abundance of caution wouldn’t be a bad thing. I stopped using Facebook because it degraded so badly and they kept overstepping boundaries. It would be a real loss if the same thing started to happen here.

  • David Palmer@lemmy.nz
    7·
    2 years ago

    Good luck to them! I reckon fediverse will be pretty much impossible for them to monetise in any real way and they’ll almost definitely give up.

    • Dave@lemmy.nzM
      5·
      2 years ago

      Nah, it will be easy. They can build an entire platform just how they like, and do all the monetising they like. Federating with other servers is an add on not a critical part of the platform - unless you’re talking about uptake, in which case being able to point at a bunch of users to follow on day 1 will be really helpful.

  • _ed@sopuli.xyz
    6·
    2 years ago

    I think a preemptive block is unwarranted and signals that any company who interested in engaging would may have to pass some kind of purity test by the Fedi-elites. All very tribal.

    Vigilance for sure. I imagine fb is more interested in converting twitter users / companies than fedi. (Hence nda)

      • _ed@sopuli.xyz
        3·
        2 years ago

        I set up my own matrix and pleroma server to disconnect from these guys so I’m not a fan. But I also know how these services haven’t been too picky when it comes to bridging e.g matrix to WhatsApp. Etc. AP immediately looking to bridge to blue sky etc (even hoping they’d use ap, like fb is).

  • Manticore@lemmy.nz
    3·
    2 years ago

    I think it’s probably a good idea.

    Did you know the Neanderthals were arguably more cultured, social, and collaborative than our Human ancestors? Yes the Neanderthals aren’t our direct ancestors; they were another competing hominid. Humans killed them - but they also outbred them, including by breeding with them.

    Humans are social creatures; the largest federated instances grow far faster than the smaller ones. Not just in absolute number, but in percentages. And Capitalism doesn’t want competition in a free market; it wants a monopoly as quickly as possible. Any time a platform represents a threat to Meta’s user-share, it buys it (Instagram, WhatsApp), and if it can’t, it copies it (TikTok > Reels).

    If a known name of a private umbrella like Meta/Facebook, Alphabet/Google, or Microsoft enters the fediverse, the following is likely to happen:

    1. The fediverse gains notoriety, desirability and attention as private platforms enshittify.
    2. It grows until this represents a threat to private platforms losing users to the fediverse.
    3. [Meta]'s private users enter the fediverse via [Meta]'s instances; they’re sponsored, accessible, visible or incentivised; they appear to have the lowest barrier for entry; they may integrate with the platforms they’re still using.
    4. New users in the fediverse in general likely join [Meta]'s instances; they’re large, and where their families and friends are; they promise to be stable and have legal oversight; less likely to blackout from server error or admin corruption.
    5. [Meta] slowly collects the majority of users in the fediverse.
    6. [Meta] reaches a point of having >80% of the fediverse users anyway, and ceases the funding and technical support for federation and gateways, defederating and becoming a high-walled garden.
    7. Other fediverse members are pressured by their colleagues, family/friends etc to make a [Meta] account so they can maintain contact. They won’t leave [Meta] because they’d lose contact with anybody staying.
    8. Other fediverse instances are forgotten as their users are pressured back onto private platforms.
    9. [Meta] has successfully gained an effective monopoly over the fediverse.
    10. [Meta]'s fediverse enshittifies.

    TLDR: I think the Fedipact (or something like it) is necessary for the fediverse to ever become what we hope it one day can be. To allow self-interested private entities to stack territory in it will eventually see it consumed.

  • nick@campfyre.nickwebster.devEnglish
    2·
    2 years ago

    From my perspective (although I run my own instance so feel free to ignore my opinion) I’m happy to federate with meta/tumblr/mozilla/whomever

    It means I can talk to people who are more technically challenged without having to sign into a facebook/instagram/etc account. I don’t think embrace, extend, extinguish applies here because if they defederate we’re just back to now-- we lose no standing.