cross-posted from: https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/48071860
A new report by Genocide Watch, a rights group, concludes that the Chinese Communist Party’s policies against Uyghur Muslims meet multiple advanced stages of genocide under international law.
The report finds that the Chinese government’s actions in Chinese-occupied East Turkistan aka the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region span Stages 3, 8, 9, and 10 of genocide. These include systematic discrimination, mass persecution through detention and torture, exterminatory acts such as mass rape and the removal of Uyghur children, and ongoing denial by Chinese authorities and their international defenders.
Genocide Watch documents the use of mass detention camps, forced political indoctrination, bans on the Uyghur language, widespread destruction of mosques, forced labor programs, coercive population control policies, and the separation of Uyghur children from their families into Mandarin-only institutions. The report warns that these acts constitute both genocide and crimes against humanity under the Genocide Convention.
“This report removes any remaining ambiguity,” said Arslan Hidayat, Team Lead of the Save Uyghur Campaign. “Genocide Watch is clear that what is happening to Uyghurs is not cultural policy or counterterrorism. It is a coordinated campaign that has reached the extermination and denial stages of genocide. Governments that continue business as usual with Beijing are choosing complicity over accountability.”
[…]
“These recommendations are not radical. They are the minimum legal and moral obligations of states that claim to uphold human rights,” said Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid, President of Justice For All. “The stages of genocide identified in this report are a warning to the world. History will judge whether governments acted when the evidence was undeniable or looked away while an entire people were erased.”
[…]



The biggest problem here is that the west can’t say shit, as China is too important and we have even more genocide by our hands 🤷♂️
mostly china suppresses news out of how serious it is, we know its happening. its like voyager episode in trek, where the TRABE were enslaving the kazon, and no other race was willing to question them, because of extensive trading opportunities.
I disagree… beyond just saying shit, the actual biggest problem is that no one (west, east, whatever) can do shit because that would basically require direct military intervention… which would probably have a much higher human cost.
At what point is the cost of negligence too high? At what point is it ethically valid to commit the lives of troops from your country to change the behavior of a government of another country within its own borders?
Historically, the answer is never. No country will commit its own military in this way without an initial military provocation, except when using the human rights abuses as a pretext for territorial acquisition.
It’s still important to talk about the truth of these atrocities, to not let their perpetrators pretend they’re not happening. But… the reality of this will not change without regime change in the PRC.
And as things are right now, we’re way too dependent on China as a tech manufacturer. Long term, I believe we can get our balls out of their death grip, and then sanction them properly. If there are still any Uyghurs left by then…
I doubt it. The situation is not just a death grip… China is the second largest economy in the world. In order to effectively sanction another nation you have to be in a position of economic superiority, such that you can affect the trading decisions of other nations. Even if western nations could extricate their manufacturing needs from China, they would still be dependent on raw materials trade. There just isn’t a way to cut trading ties with China, short of a broad collapse of international trade… and then, well, a lot of people die.
This is the part that feels so wrong. Choosing to not do anything about this terrible thing that we know is happening seems self-interested. I feel that at some point in the future the descendants of the Uyghurs will look at the world and ask, “Why didn’t you do anything to help us?”, and what could be our answer then?
But… doing something in practice would mean so many deaths, and so much suffering before the conflict was resolved, and more suffering after while trying to pick up the pieces.
Some time ago there was a similar discussion in another thread, I did a brief research back then and post this with little edits as it fits here, too.
Western nations have already begun to diversify away from China, in their supply chains as well as in in raw materials. I admit that no Western country has arrived where it may want to be in its ‘de-risking’, but we must also look at China’s dependencies.
To name an example, China depends on imports for its supply of zirconium, a little-known critical mineral. Australia is the world’s largest producer and supplies China with 41 per cent of its imports, as China has already admitted.
The West also accounts for a high share of China’s imports of other important goods, such as some foodstuffs, certain raw materials, and other products. If we look at China’s import/export ratios, we see it is 65:1 for ores, slag, and ash, and with an import share of almost 50 per cent the West holds a high leverage in this sector.
Chinese import/export ratios for mineral fuels is 8:1 (although the Western share is below 20 per cent here as the majority comes form emerging economies), but for grain it is 21:1, for meat it is 36:1. (I hope that the West will never use food as some sort of ‘trade weapon’ - as China has been doing - but I am not sure.) There are may similar examples in the industry.
China is almost unilaterally dependent on ‘aircraft and spacecraft machinery and parts thereof’, an important product group. Although the import/export ratio is quite low (2:1), the western share of Chinese imports is some 97 percent, according to the German Economic Institute (opens pdf – German source). This category displays China’s highest import dependency on the West, and there is practically no substitution by alternative trading partners, and in China there is only a small degree of substitutability possible through an expansion of domestic production.
[If interested, EU-China and other trade data with relevant links can be found here.
Also, Europe is an attractive market as China’s EU export are rising - making a decisive contribution to the Chinese GDP.
So I don’t say that the EU or the West doesn’t depend on China, but I say that China depends also on the West if we look at the data of highly complex global supply chains. It’s certainly not a straightforward one-way dependency as conventional reporting (influenced by China?) make it seem in my opinion.
Okay, serious question because I’m fairly knowledgeable about political science/philosophy but completely ignorant re military and covert operations: is this a situation where underhanded tactics like assassination of local political figures, etc. would be useful, or is that just ignorant Hollywood nonsense?
Uyghurs in China are being rounded up and forced into labor camps
I think this set of photos of one of the camps in Xinjiang is particularly illustrative:
This isn’t some short-term persecution for the sake of political influence, it’s not the whim of a few local officials, and it’s not just basic racism. This is a systemic problem, not just with the government but with Chinese culture broadly. Uyghurs are seen as inferior, and therefore it is acceptable to use them as labor or worse. What’s being done to these people is akin to the African slave trade of the 1800s, it’s just being done mostly within China’s borders. It is exploitation at an industrial scale plotted by the highest levels of political power and executed ruthlessly.
To change this would require forcing large portions of the Chinese population to see the Uyghurs as equals, as fellow humans with a right to self-determination, and then act on that conviction to change the government.
A failed US covert operation is why this narrative was cooked up in the first place, to make lemonade out of its lemon[1][2].
With China being a nuclear country, military intervention is out of the question. If we omit the question how strong China actually is. So the only option left is political and economical pressure and sanctions. Which will never happen. Also, as said, west doesn’t have a problem with genocide, perhaps it’s useful when our “enemies” commit it, so we have a leverage, no matter how weak it is.
Yeah, pretty much. Even a non-nuclear conflict at any level that would affect regime change would be devastating.
Even if the entirety of the UN got together and unanimously condemned the PRC for the treatment of Uyghurs, I doubt they would care. China is about as likely to change domestic policy based on external political pressure as they are to collectively tap-dance to the moon.
Effective economic pressure requires a position of economic superiority. China is the second largest economy in the world, which means they are inextricably intertwined with the largest economy (the US) and so nobody has that position.
That ship sailed three years ago. Previously:
Oh, what about the west
Enlighten us, on what grounds can west protest the genocide in China?
You are sick in the head if you think you need moral grounds to protest ethnic cleansing.
I really see a beautiful protest with “yeah, we can and we are doing it, but you bad”. China will merely say what about you? And then?
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The biggest problem is that Westerners believe this shit[1]. See also[2].
Too bad China had a habit of cracking down on journalists it doesn’t like. Imagine if the west could send someone in there to prove you right
Bullshit. You can go to Xinjiang and see for yourself, as millions do each year.
“What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy”. From Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts & Reds:
Cool, looks like you can use copy and paste, but don’t really say anything about journalists. Which on the topic.
Nice of you to assume i can afford a ticket to East Kazakhstan to verify ML bullshit, but I can’t. Instead I need to trust media organisations and the international community. Can’t really trust Chinese state media as they arrested Cheng Lei and Yeng Hengjun and sentenced them behind a closed trial. They also tried to arrest Bill Birtles and Mike Smith for espionage.
https://youtu.be/t-axd1Ht_J8 Discussing China’s set up of a prison network in East Kazakhstan
Not that I think any of these will really dissuade YOU, but others who read this will know you are full of it
Whether you can afford it or not, you’d be going to the wrong place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Kazakhstan_Region
If Kazakhstan has prisons then talk to Kazakhstan. Anyway, both Kazakhstan and China have prisons because every country has them, some more than others. China has roughly the same number of prisoners per capita as Australia, and Kazakhstan has slightly more.
Except for the ones who don’t think I’m full of it, and also the ones who know I’m not full of it.