- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
President Biden and other senior U.S. officials are becoming increasingly frustrated with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his rejection of most of the administration’s recent requests related to the war in Gaza, four U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the issue told Axios.
Why it matters: Since the Oct. 7 Hamas attack 100 days ago, Biden has given Israel his full backing, with unprecedented military and diplomatic support, even while taking a political hit from part of his base in an election year. That support has largely continued publicly, but behind the scenes, there are growing signs that Biden is losing his patience, the U.S. officials said.
- “The situation sucks and we are stuck. The president’s patience is running out,” one U.S. official told Axios.
- “At every juncture, Netanyahu has given Biden the finger,” Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.), who has been in close contact with U.S. officials about the war, told Axios. “They are pleading with the Netanyahu coalition, but getting slapped in the face over and over again.”
Behind the scenes: Biden hasn’t spoken to Netanyahu in the 20 days since a tense Dec. 23 call, which a frustrated Biden ended with the words: “This conversation is over.” They had spoken almost every other day in the first two months of the war.
- Before Biden hung up, Netanyahu had rejected his request that Israel release the Palestinian tax revenues it’s withholding.
- National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby tried to downplay the decrease in communication, telling reporters on Wednesday that “it doesn’t say anything” about the state of the relationship.
- But more and more signs of irritation are emerging. “There is immense frustration,” a U.S. official said.
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It has long been time to abandon the 🥕 and start using the stick.
Maybe old Joe will finally get the picture that you cannot work with a hostile authoritarian who is trying to preserve their political ambitions through warmongering. Better late than never I guess, but holy fuck how much more obvious can it get.
TBH Joe is one of those ancient democrats that was around since segregation and was on the wrong side of the issue. I really truly wanted to believe that he had changed, that him serving as VP under Barack Obama had meant something, but clearly he’s still the same son of a bitch he was in his youth. I hope we get some real options in 2028 or I might be learning German and moving out of the US Shithole Country.
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I might be learning German and moving out of the US Shithole Country.
Already way ahead of you on that one chief 👍 I reached B2 this year and I’ve set my move date to July! You’re welcome to join!
This election is a ticking time bomb imo. Both outcomes will probably end in chaos. I’ll be glad to watch it and to cast my vote. Just from way over there, where I’m hopefully outside of the blast radius
Okay well America doesn’t elect Israel’s leadership, so we don’t get to choose who we work with. Bibi is a real piece of shit but our military alliance with Israel, not Bibi, and Bibi is less of a hostile authoritarian than all of the Islamic fundamentalist leaders in charge of all the surrounding countries; those countries have zero chance of establishing lasting human rights. As a democracy, Israel just might.
Guess they got pissed though on October 7 when Hamas used Gaza City to launch 3,000 rockets at Israel and then launch an invasion that killed 1,200 people in mass shootings.
Its fully within his power to pull 100% of the money Israel receives from the US and cut off all access to weapons. He has chosen not to.
It sure it. But then, the most powerful kingmaker in the US is AIPAC, if they withdraw their support of Biden, he will struggle in the presidential race.
Then the risk of a xenophobic wannabe dictator getting elected is put on the otherside of the scale.
So if you look at this from a purely US point of view. The tradeoff is brown people half a world away die, vs the US becoming trumplandia with all the vengeance he has promised to bestow on his political rivals.
So if it was your choice, what would you chose?
Edit to clarify: yes it’s bizarre US allows PACs, corporations should not be treated as people, the situation is FUBAR.
Almost like money needs to get taken out of politics but not like those who use it to keep their people in power will let that happen
Our views align on the solution and the hurdles.
It saddens me that there is no young version of Senator Sanders, he would be good for the US.
Money will never be taken out of politics. It’s the fundamental motivation for politics. No one is out there arguing for anything other than money. If you ask anyone if they want to be ecological and ethical they will say they are being so.
Now ask if the consequences is their livelihood and changing what they know. They will fight tooth and nail.
We have a fight based on two sides. But don’t think it’s only morally based. Both sides have financial consequences they are considering while fighting.
I vote for no one needlessly dying anywhere.
If Trump wins a lot of people will die, just like last time.
More people have died, lost their homes, lost their cars, lost wages, a lot more loss in general under Biden. If you dont want trump then you better start pushing for party to primary Biden
Unemployment when Trump left office - 6.3%
Unemployment today- 3.7%
Seems to me like more people with jobs means less people losing those things under Biden.
Their feelings are more valid than your facts… I couldn’t believe I was hearing such non sense from senior Republicans but they were right about their base.
Unemployment level is meaningless if there’s no livable wage. Taking 1 full time job and creating 2 part-time is not job growth, and that’s exactly what’s been happening. How many of those shitty no benefit jobs are being held by one person?
You tell me. You’re clearly the expert here.
The banks and the rich are squeezing every dime they can out of American working class, but the probable GOP nominee is the absolute wrong way to curb it.
Remember for example when he stole medical supplies and gave them to his criminal friends, who could then resell them for a higher price? During a pandemic…
the unemployment statistic only counts people who file for unemployment, and in 2020, a lot of us were able to pull $1200 a week with no look-for-work requirement.
i don’t think this is a fair comparison.
Do you have numbers showing that the levels of unemployed people not filing was dramatically different? If not, then this is meaninhless fud.
I’d ask you for a source on this nonsense but then who are we kidding right?
Not that it matters, liberals will deny facts in the face of evidence when the blue fascists do it
Elderly are becoming the fastest growing segment of the unhoused
Food bank usage at record highs
Biden’s approach to dealing with COVID (mirrored after DeSantis’ version) has led to more needless death. And this isnt even counting the 10s of thousands of Palestinian deaths he’s allowing to happen.
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Ridiculous, pure fantasy. It’s too late to hold a primary. Biden beat Trump once and can do it again.
That’s pure fantasy.
He will and you’ll cry about it.
Lol, and who do you suggest we primary against Biden? I’ll wait.
we primary
As if the voters have any say in who their party nominates or appoints
Way to not answer the question. Typical, though, complain but provide absolutely no alternatives or solutions.
Sure, I would too if it where in the table as an option. But alas, it seems it is not. I would venture a guess to say that the Biden administration would also take that option if it where available… But it seems to be a quagmire of unreasonable actors.
People are going to look back in AIPAC and wonder… how AI got a political action committee before chatgtp 6.0 passed the Turning test.
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Ow. I laughed tho
Biden’s approval rating is 33%. AIPAC is of no consequence here - no incumbent in the history of US Federal elections has ever won with such abysmal polls in an election year. Not once, ever. Biden isn’t going to magically make history here, and his ego telling him he has to do 2 terms instead of allowing for a primary election so democracy can play out is the reason why.
Then he has the audacity to claim democracy is on the line this year. It’s already gone, America is just in denial about it.
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Yeah me too
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The only saving grace is that Trump is also a uniquely unpopular political figure.
But his opponent is also unprecedentedly unpopular, so we’re basically in uncharted electoral territory such that the past isn’t necessarily a good guide to the future.
Anyone who says they know how this all plays out is either a liar or in denial.
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Can’t expect them to fight their esteemed colleagues on the other side of the aisle in Washington for things like the basic human decency of healthcare for our people, or to win an election. But if there’s one thing everyone in DC can agree on, it’s that everything wrong is the fault of the leftists! (This is of course despite leftists having virtually 0 power in this regressive, conservative capitalist dystopia in which we live).
Israel wasn’t popular with the other countries in the region before October, most of it’s neighbors have called for it’s destruction, US support is basically what keeps them in check.
Israel is not popular in the region BECAUSE of the US.
False. Israel isn’t popular in the region because of israel.
Israel is not popular in the region because the others are extremely antisemitic. Let’s stop pretending like the others are saints, please?
An old Zionist lie, conflate opposition to zionism with antisemitism
Nah the Houthis do seem pretty antisemitic, straight up.
You are trying to conflate antisemitism with being antizionist, perpetuating the Zionist lie
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement
“God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam”
Why exactly do they explicitly refer to Israel and “the Jews” separately if their issue is with Zionist Israel?
And then Al-Houthi had this to say through his fascicles: “Arab countries and all Islamic countries will not be safe from Jews except through their eradication and the elimination of their entity.”
You know what helps Zionists? Not condemning actual antisemitism, because it lets them continue the lie that anti Zionism is the same as anti semitism.
Unless, of course, you have a good explanation for how wishing a curse on Jews, distinctly from death to Israel, isn’t antisemitic?
A new Antisemitic lie, conflate Jewish people’s desire to exist with Zionism.
Im no historian but i figured Israel wasn’t popular in the region because the country of irael used to be the country of Palestine until another country decided to put israel there. I bet Egypt hated having a lot of its territory held for a long time as well after that one war but like i said I’m no history doctor
There’s never been a country of Palestine, but you’re right about not being a historian…
There’s never been a country of Palestine
damn, really? Why did something like a million people get displaced when israels borders for drawn in 1950 or whatever? I can’t remember the details. Why did all those people get forced from their homes?
Because they chose war rather than the deal the ruling power offered is the short answer.
Many of those people also left willingly at the direction of the Arab Nations surrounding Israel with the understanding they’d get to return after Israel lost the war. That obviously didn’t happen because Israel won the wars.
Many were also just kicked out because this new nation had just been attacked and they wanted control over the disputed lands that they had won. It’s not a clean situation but nation building rarely is.
Nearly one million Jews were also kicked out of their homes in the surrounding Arab Nations.
More like the US is not popular in the region because of Israel.
Israel isn’t popular because the region wants a Pan Arabian state and having a Jewish one right in the middle doesn’t allow them the caliphate they’re going for.
That’s not how government appropriations work.
The money to Israel is NOT appropriations, it comes from the Foreign Military Financing Fund which is 100% allocated by the President. The President decides who and how much of that money goes to what counties and organizations.
That’s a very limited part of the support. Most of the money is allocated as I understand by Congress either directly to Israel, allocated to DoD or State Dept. who the. use their own budgets and programs to provide diplomatic and military support, sometimes jointly, of which Congress has oversight, and then through a number of statutory procedures, including the one you cited, which is basically lend-lease financing and grants. I don’t know the details of how it works but the President absolutely does not do as you’ve described. Even the limited authorizations and limited funding controlled by the White House has statutory procedures.
Yeah but that would be a ridiculous betrayal of our foreign policy and our ally.
Would it? I doubt it’s general policy to help our allies if they suddenly go insane.
It’s insane to bomb the tunnels from which Hamas launched a terrorist attack of mass shootings and kidnapping of innocent civilians and first responders, and which they retreated back into?
I don’t think so. I think the tunnels are a proportionate and just target.
I just don’t see military force as an effective counterterrorism strategy. Look what the US did in Afghanistan. Our best successes there were when we built infrastructure for the people. Our greatest blunder were the bombs we dropped.
If you have 10 terrorists and you kill 5, how many terrorists do you have?
- Because even terrorists have family and friends. They only need a reason to pick up a gun.
Israel is blind with rage, just like we were after 9/11. Yes there needs to be justice, but whatever this is, it’s not justice. It’s ineffective.
At this point, this war is way way over proportion to the original attack, yes.
Exactly.
Good. Maybe this can be the turning point away from the US’s bootlicking support of Israel. Fuck Bibi and his genocidal goons.
If they’re not careful, there’s a risk he might furrow his brow while handing over the next billion dollars worth of cluster bombs
Maybe he’ll threaten to rein him in after the election
Biden is going to lose an election over it. Let’s try sanctions against Israel instead of, maybe, you know, giving them billions in military aid that’s being used to kill toddlers.
They liked hummus though so it was justified
I want to say you’re wrong, but the left is dumb enough to pull off getting Trump elected.
Trump didn’t win an election. Hillary lost one. It’s astounding how good they are at throwing.
It’s fucking terrifying seeing this play out again right in front of our faces. Honestly, if we elect Trump again, our Republic doesn’t deserve to survive.
I agree with you, but God damn, I hate that I thought that the last time.
We have to fight tooth and nail against Trump. We have to fight tooth and nail and the Israeli genocide, but also against Trump.
Democrats really are their own worst enemy. At every opportunity, they do everything in their power to alienate their voting base.
Given, republicans hurt their voters all the time, and even more egregiously. But they lie about it and spin it as a win to their voters, who eat it up. Democrats are hilariously bad at championing their wins, and seem to put their failures on display instead.
Democrats do not have the equivalent of Fox News on their side. A lot of people think they do, but they are ignorant. It’s an objective fact that there is no Democratic equivalent to Fox News, OANN, NewsMax, Sinclair or right wing talk radio. There just isn’t. Nor do I think there ever could be given that the Democratic party is really a collection of very disparate political views whose only real common cause is opposition to what the insane GOP has turned into.
The left didn’t want Biden in the first place, they wanted Sanders, but the democrats pulled all the stops in 2020 to get Biden as the nominee and they insisted that this was for everyone’s good.
How large do you think the American left is? Because if it was large enough to deliver a presidency to Trump, Biden would actually be listening to them. When polled about prospective third parties more respondents wanted a party to the right of the Republicans than wanted one to the left of the Democrats. You’re setting up a Boogeyman that doesn’t exist so you can shift rightwards after you lose for being too far right. You blame leftists because you don’t want to realize you’re moving too far right for Democrats.
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They want trump to win almost as much as they want biden to win. If trump wins, that’s another 4+ years that they can run on their “at least we’re not literal nazis” platform. Same reason they continually fuck over Bernie and buy ads for trump and his ilk
Why are there so many Iranian talking points on Lemmee lately?
Just because it is a talking point doesn’t make it false. I am sure if America gave Ukraine a nuke and they used it to nuke Moscow, that fact would be a Russian talking point.
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It’s crickets when politicians propose giving billions of American taxpayer money and weapons to Israel, year after year. It has never been a better time to stop fucking doing that for good.
More finger wagging, no action.
Bibi doesn’t give two craps about Biden. Bibi knows that the entire Gaza debacle is a mess for Biden. He probably bets on a GOP win later this year, which will come with a big wave of financial support for him anyway.
Why would he? He’s gonna get finnancial support no matter what party wins
My theory is that he prefers the GOP over the Dems anyway since they’re a lot more supportive in terms of finances but also political support, whereas the Dems are threading more lightly around his issue. I think that partly fucking Biden over by not doing his bidding is an added benefit to him. Not only does he get to do what he wants but he’s also creating domestic problems for Biden which in turn would mean that the GOP gets a better chance at unseating him and unlocking even more support for Israel
It’s no secret that he’s allied with the Republicans, no speculation required. I thought this was common knowledge.
Because Bibi is playing to the hardline Israeli conservatives, and they align far better with the GOP values.
Trump will find something to defund to give them more money.
100%
I didn’t know Israel was even handling Palestinian tax revenues. Gives a clear picture of just how much of a stranglehold that Israel has on Palestine, but I suppose it should’ve been obvious since I already knew they controlled food, water, and pretty much everything going in and out of Palestine.
At every juncture, Netanyahu has given Biden the finger
*Surprised Pikachu face
Racist people never care about anyone, once he is done with Palestinians, you can be sure he will go after someone else
“Biden realizes his polling numbers are falling and decides to do damage control”.
Israel is not going to be a winning issue in terms of poll numbers.
Every issue is a winning (or losing) issue in presidential elections. There’s far too many factors to assume any one thing can’t sway the tide.
Hillary made that mistake in 2016.
No, my point is that Biden will lose more voters than he gains on Israel if he changes course. Most of the US is still overwhelmingly pro-Israel despite the genocide on display.
I absolutely think he should drop Israel like a hot potato, but not for domestic strategic reasons. It’ll damage his poll numbers, not help them.
I don’t think so? Republicans won’t vote for him either way, and among Democrats support for Palestine has already overtaken support for Israel AFAIK. Biden’s current stance is losing him young voters like crazy.
and among Democrats support for Palestine has already overtaken support for Israel AFAIK.
Compare support for continued Israeli aid, not support for Palestine. Lots of people claim support for Palestine, yet support continued aid to Israel. If you have something to the contrary, unironically, I’d love to see it. It’d be a rare bright light in these dark times.
Biden’s current stance is losing him young voters like crazy.
As a young voter, we generally don’t turn out in the requisite numbers.
Lots of people claim support for Palestine, yet support continued aid to Israel.
Oh I see.
If you have something to the contrary, unironically, I’d love to see it.
It’s not exactly what you’re looking for, but there.
we generally don’t turn out in the requisite numbers.
Yes, which is why Trump won in 2016. And change in that trend is how Biden won in 2020. Which is why if Biden can’t secure those votes he’ll lose in 2024. It could be a lose-lose situation, but from that perspective it seems like Biden is digging his own grave.
A significant minority of Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters (36%) disapprove of his handling of the war.
Like, don’t get me wrong, I would love if public sentiment turns against the war in Israel, but right now, it’s just… not.
Yes, which is why Trump won in 2016. And change in that trend is how Biden won in 2020. Which is why if Biden can’t secure those votes he’ll lose in 2024. It could be a lose-lose situation, but from that perspective it seems like Biden is digging his own grave.
I rather think this issue is a lose-lose situation in terms of losing voters. Which is one of the reasons I think it’s even more important that Biden take steps away from support of Israel - if you’re gonna lose voters either way, might as well make the decision that is both moral and strategically better for America.
As a young voter, we generally don’t turn out in the requisite numbers.
And yet, we’re blamed for HRC losing. So which is it?
I mean, for HRC’s loss the margin was razor-thin, but realistically it was due to her ignoring several states in favor of running up the margins in Cali to make her eventual win look more ‘legitimate’.
Huzzah electoral college. /s
I believe the electoral college is blamed for HRC losing. Sure, it wasn’t the only factor, but it’s a pretty big deal that you can win the popular vote and still lose the election.
Okay yeah but if we sit these Democrats down and explain to them the threat of an Israel Iran war, they will see how assinine of an idea pulling support for Israel would be.
And if Trump gets elected because those youngsters don’t vote… I guess they’ll learn the hard way that elections have consequences. How insignificant the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will seem if Trump becomes the first dictator in US history.
Make better choices in the primary Boomer. Stop electing procorporate trash candidates.
It would have been a game-changing political realignment if Bernie had won the primary instead of Hilary. He could have beat Trump in 2016, soaking up a lot of the populist and working class vote in the Rust Belt, and the trajectory of US politics would have been very different.
Alas, that didn’t happen and a lot of left-leaning people stayed home rather than vote for Hilary. This is a longstanding problem in the Democratic party. Right-wingers always go out and vote Republican, no matter the candidate. Whereas, the left is fickle. Hilary may have been a typical corpo politician, but she was still better than Trump. Even if all she did was make some some incremental progress on public health care and appointed some reasonable SC judges, the US would be a better place right now. Instead, the whole world is facing the possibility of a Trump dictatorship.
Centrists are just going to have to accept that they can’t get everything they want at all times, even if it means they don’t get to support genocide anymore.
If they’re mad because Biden stops supporting genocide, it’s because they’re russian troll children astroturfer shill bots who don’t know how anything works and want Trump to win. Pro-genocide centrist Democrats need to stop being such purity ponies. They need to grow up, shut up, and vote blue no matter who. After all, voting is a chess move, not a love letter.
Sauce for the goose.
There may be many factors but to just throw your hands up and say every issue is equally important is just plain foolish.
Or he is disgusted with how Netanyahu is waging genocide. The U.S. can’t just say “alright Israel, you’re on your own” because it would possibly lead to a nuclear conflict between Israel and Iran. Shit would get out of hand real fast when the militants try to storm Israel thinking it’s go time. I hate Netanyahu as much as I hate Khamenei and Hamas
It’s never bothered him before.
I’m sure it did. Dude wouldn’t hire a bunch of people sympathetic to the Palestinians if he hated Palestine. It’s a fragile relationship to balance and abandoning Israel outright would have some severe global consequences
So we should just sacrifice millions to the whims of that murderous bastard because he’s politically useful?
It’s politically useful? No the fuck it isn’t politically useful. It’s a major divisive topic in politics today. You can underestimate the threat Iran poses to regional security and international trade all day and night, but you also lose the ability to bitch and moan about the cost of living when their actions directly implicate those things.
Israel also has a chance to overcome the far right shitstain that is Netanyahu and his supporters and elect a leader who would be committed to reforming relations with the PA. Iran is making it nearly impossible to do so (which is their plan) but it is possible. You can blame Israel for this 100% but Iran shares an equal part of the blame for supporting terrorists across the region
The U.S. can’t just say “alright Israel, you’re on your own” because it would possibly lead to a nuclear conflict between Israel and Iran.
As if Iran can’t possibly be responsible for it’s own actions.
If Iran wants to invade that’s a problem with Iran, not the US.
Iran wouldn’t invade. They’d use their proxies abroad to stage an assault, and Israel may escalate without the U.S. holding it back by striking Iran directly
Iran wants to invade. They think (incorrectly) that they will win. Israel will turn Tehran into a parking lot before that happens.
Oh they want to invade, but they’re also aware how quickly they would get leveled. They’re hoping their pawns can do enough damage for them, and to hell with who gets hurt along the way, whether it be Palestinians, the Lebanese, or Yemenis. It’s why to me, it takes a monster to openly cheer for one side or the other. Israel is wrong for what it’s doing to the Palestinians, but to praise Hamas/Iran is just unconscionable. It’s one of the times when it’s totally fair to blame both sides for the mess that’s going on lol
Yeah, this is why I don’t get the ‘war will erupt’ reason to not stop funding for genocide, Iran doesn’t a stand a chance against Israel, US stopping funding won’t make Israel magically defenseless, but it’ll surely put pressure to stop killing innocent civilians
Iran doesn’t know that though. They literally think they will win. They are fucked up insane religious zealots who think Dog is on their side and that they were preordained by an all powerful being to wipe out the Jews. It’s stupid, but that’s what the power structure there is built on. They won’t win, but what will happen is that there will be tens of millions of dead, tens of millions of more refugees, and the complete destabilization of the middle east, north Africa, eastern Europe. It would be a cascade of failed states that would almost certainly kill many, many more people over the next hundred years. There is no peace with Iran. All the West can do is try to contain it, plug holes, and sometimes smash it back into its hole when it sticks its head out, such as when its proxy Hamas does a massive terrorist attack.
Ive given up on humanity.
I favor nuking everyone.
Oh, no. A politician doing what the people want in order to save his job.
That’s how it’s supposed to work. It’s better than the usual m.o. where the politician does whatever they want and screw the people. Yes, it would be nice if they did what you want from the get-go, but I will vote for the one that changes their stance due to popular pressure over one that “sticks to their guns” no matter who it’s hurting.
(I’m speaking in generalities here. Obviously Biden hasn’t changed his stance yet.)
Except he’s not doing what the people want. He’s doing what Israel wants and then making a big show out of being frustrated they aren’t doing what he wants. For all we know, he’s told them to not worry about what he’s saying, he’s just trying to win back support to avoid losing the election.
He could cut off the aid or add conditions to it at any time. Or even just not veto UN resolutions.
I agree. Please read my last sentence.
The statement, however, indicated that they were more annoyed that a politician would change their stance because of poling numbers rather than because it’s the right thing to do. My point is that our political system is designed for just that. Politicians have always done what is best for themselves, and expecting different from any politician is naive. Our system is deliberately designed to allow people to put pressure on politicians to (try to) keep them from sacrificing the people they are supposed to govern for their own gain.
I was talking more to the general sentiment of the statement, not to these specific circumstances. Don’t blame a politician for bowing to political pressure from the people. That’s what they’re supposed to do to keep your vote. Allow them to change their policy, even if they don’t change their stance. Instead, blame the ones that double-down on harmful decisions because they don’t want to appear “weak.”
This is all theoretical, of course. Recent elections have shown that too many people are willing to be sacrificed to allow those in charge to appear “strong.”
That’s not what’s happening at all. If anything it’s the opposite and the Biden people are being much harder on Netanyahu behind closed doors than in public. All of the reputable reporting and analysis indicates this.
If the military aid valve is still fully open, I’m going to take any suggestion that he’s trying his hardest behind closed doors with a grain of salt. He’s got three levers that should have big impacts: access to purchase weapons, the money being used to buy those weapons, and the military support to discourage the other regional powers from stepping in.
It all makes me wonder what levers Israel is pulling on the leaders of the West.
100 days of genocide. He sleeps.
0.004% of all Palestinian have been killed. 1% of the Palestinians in Gaza. Daily death tolls have been falling.
What evidence is there of genocide?
It sounds like you are complaining the genocide isn’t going fast enough.
No I’m saying these numbers are proof positive that s genocide is not taking place. The daily numbers are going down with 99.996% of the Palestinian population still alive. What kind of genocide is that?
Good thing genocides aren’t declared over percentages, but hard numbers. Over 20,000 innocent Palestinians have been murdered by the IDF. Genocides start at 5000.
What? It’s not a question of numbers but a question of intent. I’m saying the numbers as they stand are not evidence of such intent.
If the daily numbers of people dying was going up instead of down, such numbers would tend to prove genocidal intent.
Maybe it’s 5,000 people if the total number of people is 25,000 or something. That would be 20%. That would tend to prove genocidal intent.
Other things I would consider strong evidence: air strikes on civilian targets without no credible military justification, precision, or proportionality, would tend to prove genocidal intent.
Israel is literally doing all of what you have described in your last paragraph, go see a therapist because you have lost all empathy
You got tricked. The IDF has been pretty transparent. Link me a specific example of what you’re talking about and maybe I can help you understand how you’ve gotten mixed up.
Forget it, Lemmy is hell bend that Israel is the new Nazi-Area Germany. I agree with you that there is no genocide. There are lot’s of war crimes, but no genocide.
Fuck off to Truth Social then, propaganda bot. 20,000 dead innocent Palestinians, mostly women and children, referred to as sub-human animals by the Israelis, bUt No GeNoCiDe HeRe!
Yeah, never heard “sub-human animals” in regards to Palestinians from Israelis in the last 20 years. Only in regards to Hamas and I tend to agree with that notion.
These people got tricked and they cannot believe evidence before their eyes.
This is the equivalent to thinking someone is going to win a marathon if they are limping and have slowed to a walk after 400 feet.
There were 150 times more Iraqi civilians killed per capita in the US war in Iraq and I have never once heard a single person call it a genocide.
Israel has the ability to level Gaza and the West Bank and kill every Palestinian person within about twenty minutes and yet they have not done so.
Instead, were three months into this “genocide” and 99.996% of the Palestinian people are still there.
It seems to me that Israel is targeting the tunnel infrastructure im Gaza City and known Hamas militants, who use their families and public infrastructure including school, hospitals, and apartment building to conceal the 800 tunnel shafts the IDF have documented in Gaza City.
Also, some 90% of the airstrikes have been in a tiny area of Gaza City, at the tunnels from which Hamas launched the October 7 attach and to which they retreated. Israel issued emergency text and OTA broadcasts warning civilians to evacuate and not to go near the blockade. I’ll agree the blockade and occupation were illegal, but Gaza no has has now functional ability to govern itself, let alone rebuild the infrastructure.
Thankfully the UN and Geneva Convention don’t require us to wait for the oppressed population to be dead to declare a genocide. What Israel is doing meets the definition.
What are you going to do when South Africa’s complaint gets thrown out kn the papers?
Shrug. The world pretty much expects that the court is there for enemies of the Western countries anyways. I’ll be happy if they rule against Israel but not surprised if they don’t.
What will you do when it doesn’t?
Read the decision and factual allegations, the tribunal’s statement of the law, and it’s analysis, and figure out what information I lack right now that would have informed a more accurate assessment. That’s what I do when I’m wrong about a case.
ok buddy. I’m just going to believe your made up numbers. But it’s ok, keep sucking that Israeli cock.
If you don’t know where these numbers came from you don’t know enough about this to have opinions. Kindly stop posting about this.
they came from your mouth. you’re the one that didn’t post your source. you expect everyone to just take your word for it? yeah no. not trusting some rando online that supports what israel is doing. killing women and children indiscriminately is indefensible and if you try you’re just as bit of a piece of shit as the zionists that are attempting to wipe a group of people from the face of the earth.
Again if you think I just made them up, were not aware of them yourself, and have no idea about how they are tabulated, then I don’t believe that you’ve been following along closely enough to really have strong opinions about what’s happening.
Indiscriminate killing? That’s bogus. The IDF told civilians to leave. Hamas used human shields. You can criticize Israel for being overzealous with collateral deaths, but saying they are indiscriminate is just not true. Surprise surprise you don’t know basic facts about the war and you got tricked by a lie.
They were told to leave, and then prevented from leaving through the only crossing at Rafah. Then the refugee camps at Rafah were bombed.
Egypt controls the southern border. Humanitarian corridors were respected with a handful of exceptions. 70 deaths are attributed to such attacks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Palestinians_evacuating_Gaza_City
I have not reviewed each one and compared it to what IDF says on its official website.
I’m not finding much info for an airstrike on Rafah. It’s. Not on this page, which is well edited:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_engagements_during_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
So you’re ok with a military killing innocents. I got it. You flat refuse to share your sources. Got it. “do your own research”. Got it. You realize that any credible news outlet, be it a paper, tv show, web site etc will tell their sources. Because that’s how you’re credible. You’re just a dude on the internet. How do I know you’re not getting your number from a bogus ‘source’? Just “trust me bro”. The IDF told people to leave, then bombed the places they told people to go. Ok, Hamas used human shields. Just shoot through the shield. Great. You killed two birds with one stone. The IDF WANTS all those people dead, why would they be discriminate when choosing targets? Bomb them all. The IDF called Palestinians “vermin”, sure sounds like someone who cares about human life to me. The IDF is doing exactly what the Israeli government has wanted to do for years and they used a false flag to justify doing it. 100 days dude. ONE HUNDRED DAYS of bombing for “retaliation” for something so small, and has plenty of evidence that was orchestrated BY the Israeli government. Hell HAMAS WAS CREATED BY ISRAEL in the first place. If the IDF is such a great military, why do they need to bomb civilian buildings, refugee centers, caravans? why not tactically go in, take out Hamas leadership and protect the innocent people? Ah, yes, that’s because they are INDESCRIMINATE with their killing because they want ALL PALISTINIANS dead. Remember this. Remember how you defended baby killers. Remember how you defended woman killers. There will come a time when you decide to backtrack on your stance, but I want you to remember that you defended this attempted genocide. Hamas is evil, I will give you that. But the Palestinian people should not pay for that with their lives.
I agree with most of this.
But if they wanted all Palestinians dead, they could do it within a half a day at most.
I haven’t looked into every allegation and it certainly seems like some war crimes have been committed by IDF soldiers. That’s a very far stretch from a formal policy of genocide, which is incredible because the death tolls and air strikes are decreasing with 99.996% of Palestinian people unharmed.
I was reading about an airstrike on a refugee camp; IDF says there was a tunnel under a market from which a Hamas leader was holed up and that the airstrike killed him and some other top Hamas people; if that’s not true, it’s a war crime. In another, the IDF struck four mosques at a refugee camp and it says the strikes killed 150 Hamas fighters who holed up in the mosques along with a bunch of civilians that Hamas held there against their will. The ministry in Gaza says there were 400 people killed. Doctors Without Borders says there were 50 civilians killed.
Innocent women and children dying in a war zone does not make it a genocide. A few statements from extremist politicians outside the military chain of command or which do not match the facts on the ground does not make it a genocide.
Calling Palestinians vermin and then trying to kill every Palestinian would be a genocide. That’s what genocide means: the intent to kill all of a people. I have yet to hear a coherent argument, just screeching and emotional nonsense.
I’m okay with the military targeting tunnels and Hamas members; those are just and moral targets. It’s sad and unfortunate that Hamas hid the tunnel shafts (800 shafts found so far) in hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings, and that it seems like a lot of people didn’t evacuate when they should have. And it’s unfortunate that Hamas members force their families, those innocent women and children, to accompany them and prevent them from leaving. Why don’t they insist that they flea while the soldiers stay to fight, if the want. Seems like Hamas wants their families and neighbors to be martyred for sympathy.
In the wake of October 7, Israel isn’t waiting to get these targets alone.
You have some homework to do, kid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_engagements_during_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
In 2025, there will be more Palestinians on earth than there were in 2023.
That’s the reality of this situation.
That doesn’t mean a genocide isn’t happening. A net decrease in population isn’t the criteria to announce that genocide is occurring. Just the total number of dead.
So what’s the number? I’ve never seen a genocide defined by a number but teach me something today. From a demographic perspective, this isn’t 1% of Palestinians. Syria has well over a half million dead in their conflict, not seeing people lining up calling that a genocide. There were around a million dead as a result of the Iraq war, was that a genocide?
Genocide is about intent as much as numbers, there are millions of Arabs living in Israel with rights and privileges that clearly show the intent is not genocidal.
FactBased and jew pilled
Patience is not something he should have ever had with Netanyahu. An enemy to mankind should be our enemy, full stop. If Israel cannot stop and contain itself then the rest of the world needs to step in and handle it for them.
Can’t wait for this view to get us all into another forever war.
Great forethought and insight there, mate.
Forever war with who? Israel would thank us for eliminating Netanyahu. Sure as fuck would improve our relations with every other nation in the region.
Um, Iran? Pretty much the alpha and omega of any questions of western foreign policy in the region.
And the cascade of failed states that would result from the most massive humanitarian and refugee crisis in history–tens of millions dead, tens of millions of refugees–when Iran decides to go ahead with what it believes is its mission from God and the objective of its current foreign policy: to kill every Jew in the middleeast.
That would not be a forever war, just be the end of modern society the world over; Russia and North Korea will joint Iran’s side because Russia thinks it will be the leader of a new post-American world order.
But Russia and Iran are led by absolute delusional morons. Russia thinks it can get off a few nuclear strikes without provoking a massive US counterstrike aka major attack option one. Who knows, maybe Russia can; MAD deters total nuclear war, not small scale nuclear war.
Iran fucking hates Israel, they’ve already announced their ongoing attacks will end immediately upon an end to the conflict in Gaza. They would celebrate a change in US Policy.
Also, Israel is more likely to become a failed state if we leave Netanyahu in power. Protests and violence have filled the streets for months if not years. The resulting conflicts because of Bibi’s and his conservative Caucus’ Genocide is the cascading crisis that you’re afraid of. Doing nothing is the damnation you seek to avoid.
Fuck Russia, they’ve had dictators hovering over the button for a century. I’m not afraid of them, or I would have lived my entire life and all of it’s remainder in fear. If they want to fight then I’ll fight. If they’re threatening to play thermonuclear war, nothing is new and I don’t care.
funding open and obvious genocide
👍
telling somebody openly engaging in genocide that genocide is bad
👎
Cool story bro
Our alliance is with Israel, not Netanyahu, and our policy in the region is one based on centuries, not months. Based on tens of millions of lives, not tens of thousands.
Thats a real concavebrain response right there.
No.
Oil.
They can keep it, we should have shifted away from nonrenewable a lot sooner.
Just give them another 50yrs. I’m sure they can resolve peace. But continue to ship missiles to Isreal
Bibi is just waiting and hoping for Trump.
It isn’t too late for Biden to turn things around here. Refuse to send more aid unless Netanyahu can ensure it won’t kill innocent people, and make him do a little dance too.
Like always, Bibi is putting politics above all else.
How does Iran factor into your equation?
Right? How is this not common knowledge? Putin is doing the same thing. Do people on Lemmy not follow the news?
