Why is it that compared to other mental illness’s like depression, ADHD, autism and anxiety people seem to be so hostile to NPD? I always see things about ‘mental health awareness’ yet this is never applied to personality disorders.
Just look up “narcissism”, “NPD” or “narcissistic personality disorder” and the results are about how dangerous people with NPD are and how to spot somebody with NPD or if your ex boyfriend is a narcissist etc… etc…
I was watching this video earlier by a YouTube user ‘ShortFatOtaku’ called “Low IQ Twitter Discourse Awards!” and there was this one guy on twitter who said that if you claim advocate for the mentally ill you such do so with personality disorders as well. A statement I completely agree with:
https://youtu.be/3EJedJ8MhNA YouTube
ShortFatOtaku response with “wow your going to let that narcissist kill you and take everything from you?” I shouldn’t have to explain how bad faith and unhinged that is.
Why do people think this way about narcissists? Having NPD doesn’t make someone an inherently bad person. As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever. Sure, I struggle with empathy, I have to make an effort to think about other people and ok I have a never ending need for validation but that doesn’t mean I’m a bad person I understand I have a problem I didn’t choose to be like this. Manipulation and grandiosity are awful traits that I have but they don’t define me. I’m a good friend, I’m a good sister, I’m a good coworker and there are people out there who benefit from my existence. NPD doesn’t have to define me I’m more then my diagnosis.
I think the important thing is really just that mental illness doesn’t shield you from accountability for how you impact other people, and for a personality disorder that primarily manifests in traits that harm people, that’s a hard thing to reconcile with that person’s merits. Doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t, just that because you are still responsible for potentially hurting people, and have a disorder that makes you very likely to do so, those things will be very hard for people to square.
Another example is paraphilias. Paraphilias can include things like pedophilia, which manifests in a desire to do something that would subject someone to profound amounts of trauma, the likes of which most of us couldn’t even begin to appreciate. Can someone with such a paraphilia be a good person who is kind, and does not harm people in that way? Yes. Can that person be largely a good person in most contexts, but cause people enormous harm as a result of their paraphilia? Also yes.
In some ways we are all people with conditions that affect who we would be otherwise, and in other ways we are all just people, and conditions are used descriptively to communicate the traits that we have.
At the end of the day, the thing that matters is how you treat people. If you cause people harm, it might be more understandable given the context of a personality disorder, but it doesn’t absolve you of any responsibility. And if you don’t, then you haven’t done anything wrong. And I mean that for each moment in time, each interaction. Humans are messy and complicated, and generally ideas like “good person”, “bad person”, are reductive.
I’m sorry you feel trapped or defined by your diagnosis. That can be a painful place to be. I have a close friend with borderline personality disorder who has at times felt similarly. Only thing that matters is whether you’re an asshole. Only thing that ever has mattered, only thing that ever will.
Edit: just want to be very clear- the fact that it will be hard for people to engage with you purely based on your behaviour in a given interaction is not something you deserve. Its the actions and how they affect people that count, even if I can empathize with why it’d be hard for people
Perfectly put, thank you
Thank you very much. As someone with a lot of challenges with mental illness myself, it’s something I think about a lot.
“I think the important thing is really just that mental illness doesn’t shield you from accountability for how you impact other people,”
I never said it did but but everything else you said it’s very reasonable. Easily the best response on this whole thread.
What’s your primary occupation?
I don’t presently have one, and when I do it’ll probably be like waiter at waffle-house or something 😅
Why do you ask?
for a personality disorder that primarily manifests in traits that harm people
Drag thinks you’ve misunderstood the diagnostic criteria. The criteria specifically refer to manifestations of the traits that harm the patient. Traits that harm others aren’t counted as diagnostically significant. Like, take the “excessive need for admiration” criterion. That one’s only medically significant if the patient is suffering because of their need. If they’re abusing other people into praising them and getting what they want, then they don’t have NPD.
For example, Donald Trump has the traits as a layperson would understand them, but not as a psychiatrist would understand them. Because they’re not hurting him. Doctors only care if the patient is suffering. No pain, no disorder.
Are you positive that’s entirely correct? There are definitely disorders who’s definitions are shaped by their impact on others, like Munchausen’s by proxy, but I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I could see it being described as a form of impairment to an important area of life to not being able to form healthy non-destructive relationships, and I think impairment is one of the criteria by which a disorder can be defined
I could also just be wrong though, and it’s a fair point regardless. Perhaps “defined by” wasn’t quite the right way to word things
Edit: upon rereading I didn’t actually say it was “defined by”, but the wording is still imperfect. I can only be but so anal about technicalities though; communicating my point is more important
The caregiver or partner then continues to present the person as being sick or injured, convincing others of the condition/s and their own suffering as the caregiver.
The causes of FDIA are generally unknown, yet it is believed among physicians and mental health professionals that the disorder is associated with the ‘caregiver’ having experienced traumatic events during childhood
The primary motive is believed to be to gain significant attention and sympathy, often with an underlying need to lie and a desire to manipulate others
Drag isn’t especially familiar with MBP, but this is what Wikipedia says in the introduction. That the caregiver is convinced that they’re suffering and that they need attention and sympathy. Those are the actions of someone who’s in pain, and a link to trauma makes it all make sense.
But yes, the fact that medicine is for helping patients is controversial in the psychiatric community. There’s considerable debate on the subject. But the guy who wrote the DSM IV criteria for NPD has stated in multiple interviews that Trump doesn’t have NPD, because he isn’t suffering.
American psychiatrists have to follow the Goldwater Rule, which says not to speculate on the disorders of public figures. Why? Because that’s not what diagnosis is for. Diagnosis is the first step in a plan to treat a patient and help them. Diagnosis should never be about insulting, labelling, or stigmatising a patient in the eyes of others. That’s a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
You are not thinking of the hippocratic oath (there is no mention whatsoever of gossip about patients). The do no harm clause specifies bodily harm/abuse in a physical context. You have supplied a TV or Movie memory concerning diagnosis, or maybe you think HIPAA is somehow related to the oath. Many modern doctors don’t take the traditional hippocratic oath. If you’d ever read the text, you would know why.
You’ve clearly rattled all this off without taking a single second to look at context. The goldwater rule isn’t an actual law, and it does not in fact have an explicit analogue in the current APA ethics guidelines (though you can argue the same instruction is conveyed throughout a couple of the standards). You have made up rules that doctors live by in your brain. American psychologists do not “have to follow the goldwater rule”. Every time I see you post it’s some “I googled it!” regurgitation with absolutely no understanding of the topic, or insane ramblings about how we should be nice to AI. Your five minutes of searching is not going to help you think critically about anything. This is facebook user behavior.
That’s not true. NPD diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5-TR (latest version) still contains manipulation efforts and similar behavior. Quote:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
- Requires excessive admiration.
- Has a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations).
- Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends).
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
- Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
So… Donald Trump probably meets criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis (if he ever agrees to start a “mental health journey”).
And it’s true that many disorders need to cause “clinically significant distress”, but personality disorders can be diagnosed even if they don’t cause distress to the person but causes it to others (e.g. ASPD). The DSM had to consider egosyntonic disorders, after all.
Number 6 is the only one that’s defined by the treatment of others
All 9 of those criteria only apply if they distress or impair the patient. Also, they’re outdated. That’s the DSM-IV’s criteria. And they’ve been criticised -
The NPD diagnosis in DSM has been criticized for being one-sided and relying primarily on external socially and interpersonally striking and provocative features.
As such, it has failed to capture the full range of narcissistic personality pathology, especially the internal vulnerability and insecurity characterized by severe self-criticism, insecurity, confusion, shame, aloneness, and fear.
Instead, the diagnosis has primarily emphasized external characteristics related to boasted grandiosity, and obviously adverse interpersonal functioning.
That’s why the DSM 5 criteria have more focus on the individual’s impairment and distress:
The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and pathological personality traits.
To diagnose a narcissistic personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
- Impairments in self-functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation; exaggerated self-appraisal may be inflated or deflated, or vacillate between extremes; emotional regulation mirrors fluctuations in self-esteem.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting is based on gaining approval from others; personal standards are unreasonably high to see oneself as exceptional or too low based on a sense of entitlement, often unaware of their own motivations.
- Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Impaired ability to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others; excessively attuned to reactions of others, but only if perceived as relevant to self; over- or underestimate of own effect on others.
b. Intimacy: Relationships largely superficial and exist to serve self-esteem regulation; mutuality constrained by little genuine interest in others‟ experiences and predominance of a need for personal gain
B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
- Antagonism, characterized by:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others, condescending toward others.
b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.
C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.
D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual’s developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.
E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual’s personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).
Oof… This is a tough one. First, I’ll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I’d expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability. Assuming you’ve actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn’t diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what’s wrong with you. Maybe friends or family had to really push you towards getting help. Maybe your just young enough that seeking mental health help is normalized, so you were able to go for it.
“As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever.” -As someone with NPD you wouldn’t be able to recognize if you had ever done these things. This entire post is pretty manipulative actually.
NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person’s entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem. People will spend years trying to “save” a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it’s THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it. Recognizing there is a problem is the first step towards fixing yourself. Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves. It’s truly insidious.
All those things you listed would make you a bad person if you didn’t try to correct them. And maybe you actually are. I certainly hope so.
Edit to add: asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon. It might seem to others that the person is REFUSING, when in reality they literally cannot physically do so. However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It’s not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I’m sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
This post kinda scares me. Like the way you frame NPD is that if someone is diagnosed the only moral course of action is to never form relationships with anyone ever because you simply can’t do so without hurting them. This turns any attempt at self reflection from someone with NPD into another form of manipulation and frames rehabilitation impossible. You would condemn someone to a lifetime of isolation from a singular diagnosis. It just doesn’t sit right with me.
This has simply been my experience. It doesn’t sit quite right with me. I want there to be a fix. I’ve just never seen it work.
Noooo u don’t get it! OP is manipulating everyone by asking this question /s
As someone with NPD you wouldn’t be able to recognize if you had ever done these things.
Since NPD usually precludes the person from being able to recognize the problem in themselves, it becomes impossible for them to save/fix themselves.
Asking someone with NPD to be able to self reflect and do the work to change, is like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon… they literally cannot physically do so.
This isn’t true. What are you even basing this on?
Experience… And perhaps a little over zealous. I was trying to convey that it’s not the person with NPDs fault, but I think it came across as hopeless.
Here’s a quick grab from a Google search:
Targeting the Defenses That Sustain Narcissism
"Treating narcissism can be complex and multi-faceted. That’s because many of the hallmark behaviors of narcissism are the very ones that create enormous barriers to change.
Creating a therapeutic alliance in the face of defensiveness, denial, and a lack of self-awareness can sometimes feel like a hopeless cause. It can also seem uniquely challenging to execute even the gentlest intervention without activating the client’s defenses."
They asked why people are so hateful towards people with NPD, and I tried to explain it as simply as I could. With experienced, professional help, there’s hope for people with NPD… But the disease itself is resistant to treatment, and almost any lay person trying to help is likely going to burn out fast.
The hope comes from the fact that we all have some degree of narcissism. It’s an aspect of humanity. NPD is when a person’s narcissism gets so big and unruly that it controls them and ruins their life.
The reason this is hopeful is that our culture is full of exercises and practices designed to counteract and transcend narcissism.
Someone with NPD may have a lot more work to do, but the kind of work they need to do is just an extreme version of the kind of work we all need to do in order to keep that particular demon at bay.
All very true… But we do have to DO the work, and unfortunately NPD builds in defenses against even recognizing the issue, let alone doing the work.
And narcissism combats our ability to recognize it when it’s sub-disorder level too.
We have practices like saying difficult truths to one another, or debating, or meditating, or using nonviolent communication technique, or spending time in nature, or writing in a journal. Etc etc.
A person’s non-disorder narcissism can be an impediment to their growth, and if they don’t manage it, it can grow to overcome a tipping point where it becomes dominant in their moment to moment behavior and they get trapped in it.
Just like anxiety, if not properly “trimmed”, can grow more and more powerful until it starts to prevent normal activities and then you’ve got an anxiety disorder.
Hatred and stereotypes from TV.
I completely agree. Lived around narcissists my entire life, even covert narcissists that try to act humble, and this post is exactly what a narcissist would write. I don’t mean to bash OP, but their traits are obvious to those who are experienced with them. I hope they seek treatment before they hurt anyone.
“Oof… This is a tough one. First, I’ll point out that this post is EXACTLY what I’d expect from a narcissist. Woe is me, zero accountability.”
accountability for what? Being born? Should I have known as a fetus that I would have a personality disorder one day? What did you expect me to do? Refuse to be born.
“Assuming you’ve actually been diagnosed by a psychiatric Dr, they didn’t diagnosed you with NPD on a whim. You were diagnosed with NPD after you did something, or more likely after a lot of times doing harmful things, and finally taking some initiative to figure out what’s wrong with you.”
How do you know? You think your some expert because you watch some psych2Go and pop psychology slop? I know how I treat people and I have never received any complaints from anyone I know about how I treat them and no one else convinced me to seek therapy.
“NPD is a very tragic illness. One of the worst parts imo is that, almost always, one of the symptoms is the person not being able to truly recognize their own disorder. This can be dangerous, and also infuriating. A person’s entire life can fall apart around them, and they are incapable of doing the self reflection necessary to understand why, let alone do the work to fix the problem.”
While I agree with most of what you said I do disagree with the “not being able to truly recognize their own disorder.” part. For me it’s not that I can’t recognize theres something wrong with me it’s that it hurts to think there’s something wrong with me. Maybe it’s true for most other narcissist but not for me. A another big problem is that personality disorders are not like diseases. They can’t be cured and you live with them for the rest of your life. I really wish I could get rib of my NPD and be like everyone else but I’m suck with this burden.
“People will spend years trying to “save” a loved one, to get that person to recognize that it’s THEM who is the problem and needs to do the work, just to get to the exact same spot a decade later because that person CAN NOT recognize it.”
Again, how do you know? There are plenty of people who live normal lives with NPD. Believe it or not the real world isn’t some Amazon bookstore romance novel where the big bad narc will kill and eat you. NPD is a disorder like any other so it may put you in a disadvantage but it doesn’t define you. I understand there’s something fundamentally wrong with me and I need help. My narcissism is a awful thing I live with but I won’t let it define me.
“However, unlike the paraplegic person, a person with NPD causes harm to everyone around them, and the only thing a healthy person can do is cut toxic people from their lives. It’s not the person with NPDs fault (one of the other great tragedies is that it is almost always a result of shit parents) that they are toxic, but they are toxic none the less, and unable to stop it. I’m sorry you ended up this way, I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.”
For someone who’s accusing me of being manipulative you sure are doing a lot of gaslighting. You’re probably never read a psychology book in your life and the only experience you have is pop psychology videos on YouTube and horror movies but I suppose it’s not the choice of a stupid person. They just can’t help themselves but however a stupid person is a stupid person and all you can do is disregard everything they say. I truly hope you can let yourself be treated.
I’m a mental health clinician.
You asked why people reject people with NPD… I tried to explain it. Your response was even more like what you’d expect from someone with NPD than your post was btw. You could have been curious, I am after all, just an internet stranger; who gives a shit what I think? But you went hard on the defensiveness.
You aren’t born with NPD. It’s a defense mechanism against trauma you went through when you were younger. So I am really truly very sorry you went through whatever you went through.
I’m glad you have a therapist, and I hope they are a good fit for you to really feel comfortable opening up about your childhood, and how that might have affected you.
Being able to recognize that SOMETHING is wrong is not the same as truly comprehending WHAT is wrong. I worded my original statement poorly, sorry about that. But that hurt, when you think that something is wrong with you, is the reason most people with NPD can’t face it, not even to fix it. To fix it a person needs to be able to not just think about it, but really dig into it. A full embrace of and deep dive into that thing you say hurts just to think about. Most people can’t bring themselves to even think about it, which is why they get so defensive if you get anywhere near it, on purpose or not. Good on you for facing it.
And I know there’s no cure, but with a lot of work there are work arounds you can train into your brain. I really do hope we find a cure someday. For all personality disorders. They are truly horrible afflictions.
One of the hardest parts is that it’s a non-stop 24/7 battle you didn’t sign up for and never ends and ALWAYS feels completely unfair (this is why people with NPD NEED professional help with it). NPD might not define you, but in order to beat it you will have to be defined by your fight against it… You’ll need to be “spacefox3 the narcissist who’s not going to let it win today” everyday. And we both know you can do it.
Neat job. In the context of your profession, do you think Theramintrees YouTube channel is a good resource? “Good” is probably dependent on the audience.
Never heard of it I’m afraid. After a quick skim it seems like he calls out religion for it’s bullshit in a few videos, so I like that. But, I’ll have to actually watch some videos to see what he’s about. Thanks for pointing me towards it.
Yeah he has a few videos that deconstruct different abuse dynamics.
After watching several of his videos, and most of the narcissism ones, I’d say he’s great. I’d certainly recommend his channel to anyone looking for an easy to understand intro to these things. Thanks again for the suggestion
When I was in college in the early 2000s, I took psychology classes.
In one class the professor told us that one of the best predictors of NPD was describing the disorder to someone and then asking them “Do you have this?”
According to that professor, NPD sufferers were more likely than most other disorders to recognize it in their self.
This directly contradicts what you just said about it.
You’re thinking of the “single item narcissism scale” which is the question
To what extent do you agree with this statement: “I am a narcissist.”
The disconnect is that while a narcissist can recognize they are narcissistic, they cannot accept that it rises to the level of a disorder or acknowledge the harm they cause others.
See, your making a mistake everyone else of in just assuming that I’m harmful for others. I have a very strong friend group and family members who love me and would completely disagree with your analysis on me.
That sounds incorrect. Maybe they could recognize their behaviors if you spelled it out for them and put it in a context that in no way indicated you were trying to get them to admit something about themselves… but they’re unlikely to believe there’s actually something wrong with them that they need to work to fix.
That didn’t happen. And if it did, it wasn’t that bad. And if it was, that’s not a big deal. And if it is, that’s not my fault. And if it was, I didn’t mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
The Narcissist’s Prayer (by Dayna Craig)
As someone who has NPD I haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever.
That you are aware of.
Or “…yet”.
The possibility is there, yes. But I think the best way to prevent it is to talk about NPD in a more medical way and focus on effective treatments. Honestly, I haven’t found anything like “DBT for BPD” or “lithium for BD” for this disorder. It’s very much needed.
Or are willing to acknowledge.
What do you mean by “aware of”? That’s quite the accusation your pushing. You must have some great evidence of my treatment of other people to make such a statement
Nah I won’t be providing any evidence. You’ve just provided it.
You are a failable human, unless you never interacted with anybody else ever you can’t be sure that you never made anybody feel manipulated or abused.
As someone else pointed out, this post is manipulative. You’ve set yourself up as a victim and when people posit that you could potentially have some self improvement, you are doubling down about it.
Removed by mod
Because they have a tendency to not take accountability. Nothing is ever their fault, there’s always an excuse, there’s never an unqualified apology. If you are an exception to the rule, good on you.
I know two people in my life with NPD. One person is capable about having conversations about how he impacts the group socially. The other has just been cut out of my life permanently for refusing to address his issues.
“I know two people in my life with NPD.”
How did you know? Did they tell you or something?
As others have written it’s deconstructive towards other people plus NPD are hard to make understand their behaviour is problematic. In their view you are the problem if you have a problem with them. Depression, ADHD and other things do not have that trait. With them you can talk them into therapy and about potential problems they are causing.
You’re doing a lot of generalizing in this post. You seem to think you know though profess of everyone ever diagnosed with NPD.
If you are interested in NPD you could really read up on the topic. If you want to know if you have npd symptoms I would suggest to ask people who you trust and who know you well. Ask them, then listen carefully, and if 3 independent people tell you what they think of you, believe them.
Do not ask them suggestive questions, but try to ask fields or topics that npd people can have symptoms or indicators in.
I already know I have NPD and I’m not risking my friends and family finding out about my diagnosis. You’ve seen the rest of this thread haven’t you? NPD is so stigmatized that it would ruin my social life if it came out. All I have is my social life
I haven’t seen this thread. I read only the top comment, then wrote mine.
If you know you have npd you are about 2000 times better than most people who have it, as you have said it’s not a good thing to be diagnosed with it and yet you acknowledge that you have it. That’s like you are able to acknowledge that you are not unfailable or perfect.
If you really care about your friends and family you should look into therapy.
Thank you for your comment. We need more people like you. People who can see past my diagnosis and understand that I’m a person with flaws like anyone else.
Yet I still think you would massively profit from therapy :)
I’m looking into getting a therapist soon
People with at least certain types of NPD tend to use/manipulate/victimize people in ways that hurt, scare, and anger. People who have experience dealing with such NPD sufferers often have unresolved grudges which they project onto anyone with NPD. (Similarly, they tend to label NPD anyone who triggers their unresolved issues.)
In a perfect word, everyone would be emotionally mature enough not to be triggered or even injured in the first place by someone exhibiting manipulative/narcissistic behavior. But we don’t live in a perfect world. Victims of emotional abuse have valid reason to hurt and be scared and angry. It’s reasonable to say that they don’t have valid reason to demonize people with NPD. But whether demonizing people with NPD is “valid” or not, it’s understandable. At least as understandable as is any sort of projection.
So, this is a personal question, and definitely don’t feel obligated to answer it, but if you “haven’t abused or manipulated anyone ever”, can I ask if you’ve gotten any verification of this assertion from an impartial observer? For instance, has a therapist used a term like “covert NPD” to refer to you?
Also, being honest here and speaking personally, I have suffered abuse and manipulation of a distinctively narcissistic sort for a number of years. I don’t feel like I harbor hatred toward the individual in question today. (Though I’d really rather not ever interact with them again.) But it definitely was a long process to reach the point where I could say that. And it’s pretty certain that even if the individual to whom I refer had/has issues that lead them to abuse and manipulate me, I must admit that I similarly had preexisting issues on which they wouldn’t have been able to prey had I not had such issues. (And, full disclosure, if this individual ever had an NPD diagnosis from anyone with more authority than my own armchair, I’m unaware of it.)
I’ve since run into and worked closely with at least one other individual who habitually acted in very narcissistic ways toward me and others and I was able to mostly view them with empathy and avoid being triggered to an extent that wouldn’t have been possible had I not previously worked closely with the former individual I mentioned above. I can’t say I’m thankful to the first one per se, but at very least I can admit that having interacted with them, in some ways I’ve become a stronger person. (Even if in others I’ve become weaker.)
Just look up “narcissism”, “NPD” or “narcissistic personality disorder” and the results are about how dangerous people with NPD are and how to spot somebody with NPD or if your ex boyfriend is a narcissist etc… etc…
Thats because these people ARE dangerous. My dad was a narcissist (my own assumption) and his new wife is a narcissist (both of her parents actually got proper diagnosis and testing, both were positive)
My new step mom actually tried to ruin my life. She tried to throw all of my belongings away, kicked out my cat and kicked my sister and I out. (right as I turned 16 and my sister turned 20). DCF got involved and they did jack shit cause my dad bought a separate house to put us in.
My mom is also a narcissist and she is the most exhausting person to deal with. She has hit and hurt me in the past and blamed me. Constant gaslighting, constant blaming, constant lying. Narcissists are the most damaging and dangerous people you can come across. Some are obviously less insane, and are tolerable, but if I knew someone have serious NPD I’d completely avoid them and hardly talk to them.
Also I’d like to clear up, if you think you are a little smarter, or better than everyone else, I wouldn’t call you a narcissist. However if you think you are more important than everyone, and think its OK to lie to or hurt people, even a little for personal gain, you are a narcissist.
You have not provided any evidence in this post that any of the people mentioned have NPD just that there people you dislike so therefore they must have NPD. Just because someone was rude to you or wronged you in some way doesn’t mean they have NPD. I have been wronged by a lot of people but I don’t go around saying they have a mental health issue.
Personality disorders as a rule are some of the most difficult mental health issues to treat, and Narcissistic is one of the hardest.
Because the narcissist generally manipulates others to achieve their goals, it is one of the more “outward-facing” disorders, and therefore affects others. That’s why you experience “hostility” as opposed to having mental illness like depression, autism, or depression, which affects the person who has it.
Another problem with treating narcissists is they have a complex and often distorted relationship with truth, characterized by a lack of self-awareness, grandiose fantasies, manipulation, and projection. They may use dishonesty and deception to achieve their goals, but can also adapt to situations where honesty is necessary.
Narcissists are highly sensitive to criticism and rejection, which can lead to defensiveness and denial when confronted with the truth. They may become aggressive, hostile, or even violent when their grandiose image is challenged. It could be the root of this post itself.
Narcissists are incapable of understanding and relating to others’ experiences and emotions. This makes it difficult for them to comprehend the harm caused by their dishonesty and lack of truthfulness. They are their own worst judge.
Recognizing and understanding these patterns is crucial for dealing with narcissists and setting boundaries to protect oneself. We shouldn’t soft-sell NPD. It’s a part of the “Cluster B Personality Disorders (of A, B, and C),” which are the most harmful because they aren’t as apparent as Cluster A, who generally are odd enough to draw attention, and they are not needy or anxious like Cluster C.
Cluster B is:
- Antisocial personality disorder: characterized by social irresponsibility, disregard for others, and manipulation
- Borderline personality disorder: marked by emotional dysregulation, unstable relationships, and impulsivity
- Histrionic personality disorder: characterized by attention-seeking and excessive emotionality
- Narcissistic personality disorder: marked by self-grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy
People don’t understand that medicine is about helping the patient. They read the diagnostic criteria for NPD, and they don’t understand that those things are only medically significant if they harm the patient. They think the criteria is a list of bad behaviour that hurts others.
Teach people what medicine is, and the stigma disappears.
A major component of NPD is it’s harm to the sufferer’s interpersonal relationships. I think the behaviors that contribute to this, though diagnostically and medically relevant, are generally deservedly stigmatized.
This is, of course, different from the armchair diagnosing someone with NPD just because they exhibit some of these behaviors, which I do think contributes significantly to the stigma of mental illness.
Ultimately, someone with NPD is more than their diagnosis and can certainly be capable of interpersonal relationships that are worthwhile to all parties involved.
I think the behaviors that contribute to this, though diagnostically and medically relevant, are generally deservedly stigmatized.
Sure, but only one of the nine diagnostic criteria is a behaviour. Most of them are feelings. Oftentimes bad feelings cause bad behaviour, but a bad feeling isn’t enough evidence to call someone an abuser. If we start telling people they can’t feel certain ways, we’re basically inventing the concept of thoughtcrimes.
And yeah, people with NPD are very often attacked by neurotypicals for their thoughtcrimes.
And yeah, people with NPD are very often attacked by neurotypicals for their thoughtcrimes.
Source? I’ve dealt with more than my share of narcissists, and I’ve never seen this. They might say things like “You really do think you’re the center of the universe, unbelievable” but it’s not because of the thought itself, it’s because of a history of harmful behavior linked to that thought. Manipulation, verbal abuse, selfishness at the expense of others, etc.
If you somehow had all the non-behavioral traits, but were able to avoid all the telltale narcissistic behaviors, no one would attack you for your narcissistic thoughtcrimes.
That’s not what drag has heard from people with NPD.
The ableist’s first attack on people with NPD will be to say that the disorder causes abusive behaviour. And they will watch you like a hawk waiting for you to speak out of turn and prove them right. But if you stay on your best behaviour and prove the first stereotype wrong by your own existence, you will see the arguments change. You will still see hate. And the argument for the hate will morph into a new assertion: “Having a big ego is itself an act of abuse.”
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
NPD is also typified by not recognizing your behavioral offenses, and reacting to criticism by claiming to be the victim. The narcissists in my life never think they do anything wrong, that their abusive behavior is normal or acceptable, that their critics are attacking them for no reason, out of unfounded hatred or jealousy.
That does not make for a reliable evaluation. Claims of baseless attacks from a person who thinks every attack against them is baseless, does not prove that those attacks are actually baseless.
Well drag doesn’t think neurotypicals with no psychological background can make reasoned judgements on the struggles faced by neurodivergent people either. That’s like asking a white person to explain how it feels to be african american.
Just a few things:
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Bit presumptuous to assume I’m neurotypical.
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I’m pulling my information from psychologists, like the ones who described the signs and symptoms of NPD in the DSM.
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I have extensive experience with more than one narcissist. Failing to recognize their own abusive behavior, and the link to subsequent social fallout, is textbook narcissism.
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I’m not trying to make judgement on their struggles, I’m stating that believing oneself to be unfairly targeted is a symptom of narcissism.
It’s more like someone who is nose blind to their own horrific body odor (thanks to my MtG phase, also something I’m quite familiar with) than race. They think they smell fine, yet people react poorly to them, some even suggest bathing or deodorant. Since they can’t smell themself, they interpret these comments as baseless. They think they smell fine, and other nose blind smelly people will only confirm their self-assuredness.
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The D part of NPD is what is defined as harming the subject.
The N is the part the rest of us are worried about.
Most articles about spotting narcissists are not about spotting people with NPD. They’re about spotting narcissists. That’s a superset of NPD sufferers.
As someone with an NPD “friend” - I have to look beyond the insults and threats and see the insecurities and vulnerabilities behind them. Most people just can’t or don’t want to do that and will be insulted if not scared away by the things my friend says to them. There’s also a stigma associated with being friends with someone who is abusive - I keep the friendship secret from all but my closest friends, who have a hard time understanding it themselves.
There’s a reason your friends wouldn’t be okay with you putting up with that stuff.
There is also a reason this person is willing to put up with it. A neurotypical doesn’t trying to understand and forgive the behavior, they just find other neurotypical people to hang out with.
Orbiters of a narcissists, fuel the disease and gain their own validation by being someone else’s fuel. That doesn’t make it healthy.
What kind of validation does the fuel person get?
It can vary but being needed is a common one. The feeling that they are helping hold the NPD’s life together.
Ooh fuck that could be me
It’s stigmatised because the term has entered common (mis)usage to describe people who are just selfish
I don’t think that’s WHY it’s stigmatised. It had to be stigmatized before that to be applied to selfish people.
It’s a disorder that is harmful to others and difficult to understand. For others to cope with it requires navigating a complex network of negative behaviors. Manipulation and lack of empathy are the traits of a psychopath, and none of us want that.
The OP lacks empathy but evidentally desires it from others. If you understand why you need empathy, then you understand why lack of empathy is stigmatised.
It had to be stigmatized before that to be applied to selfish people.
Good point. I suspect it was a plot point in Medical Drama #17 or Police Drama #12, thus was thoroughly misrepresented.
Actually, it entered pop culture with Christopher Lasch’s book The Culture Of Narcissism
It entered pop culture in ancient Greek theater
Kinda like how “schizophrenia” is used to describe anyone who’s a bit weird or how “autistic” is used to describe someone with a interest in something.
I love how you were downvoted for a totally reasonable take.
Self defense
From what?
The Narcissist Scare by Sarah Z — This explains a lot, the term has been wildly misused and thus people don’t really understand what it actually means.
Plus there is a focus on punitive ‘justice’ very much in the systems we live under instead of either trying to understand people and trying to help them either directly or indirectly.
Allegedly, it is a difficult neurodivergence to live with in a healthy, non toxic way. However, I’ve never personally seen that from anyone I know officially diagnosed with it, in fact they are well aware that they have it and are trying to do better, a lot of people are armchair psychologists and love to diagnose with no proof, misattributing it to other things, either trauma or the systems we all live under which causes people to act in terrible ways.
For those who have genuinely been affected by the actions of those who genuinely have it though, I suspect they feel as if they have to see as everybody with it as exactly the same to try to defend themselves. However, in actuallity this likely just makes people worse because not having community or people to point out when you are doing harmful things or getting you help is likely going to make people act out or seek out others who will reinforce their beliefs instead of encouraging them to get help in ways that actually work instead of the vitriolic hating ways most do to them. Though yes, I get that people shouldn’t have to be around those that do them harm but by seeing anyone of any group as all the same it may be doing more harm than good instead of getting to know individuals.
Personally, I think a lot of the systems we live under don’t help with the behaviour of anyone with neurodiverse conditions nor those that need protection from actual toxicity because they are stagnating and do not allow those that need help to get it due to being alienating and often lacking the resources they need to get help.
I dunno dude, it’s super weird. Sarah Z has a video about this, IIRC the explanation there was something like, people have latched on to “narcissist” as a thing one doesn’t need to worry that one is oneself but can be tacked on to anybody one dislikes. Also there are demons involved for some reason.
(Having killed ShortFatOtaku’s Twitter guy, and taken all his stuff, how would “the narcissist” go about extracting the validation??? Sounds made up.)
(Also it’s always “the narcissist” like there’s just one extremely busy person out there.)
NPD might make people struggle with empathy, but nobody, who is out there thinking everyone they meet could be “the narcissist” who is out to get them and not worthy of respect or consideration, is themselves killing it on the empathy front.
