Sex isn’t gender, there are plenty of trans folks that never seek surgical conversion, body dysmorphia is a common condition among trans people but not inherent to being trans and, finally, fuck off.
You won’t get long with that final statement. Consider that such statement fuels the flame of people who are against trans, drag etc etc. You can clearly that the original commenter is willing to engage in discussion.
Sex is a combination of genetic, hormonal, anatomical, skeletal, dermal, muscular, trichoic, and arguably neurological factors. Most of those things are to some degree malleable, and in any case their grouping under the construct “sex” is social. Sex IS a social construct. It was not written on the bones of the universe in permanent marker that there would be males and females. Sex is a correlation that humans noticed, connected, and gave a name to.
Perhaps you are instead thinking of genotype. Which yes, is largely immutable barring retroviruses and new technologies, but trans people have conclusively proven that genotype is not the same as phenotype.
By the way, biohackers have already started using CRISPR on themselves for fun.
Fine in the distant future when bioengineering allows one to shape shift down to the genetic level, one could change their sex, but we do not live in such a scifi future.
I am referring to all the other physiological factors. The appearance of an organ and the actual function are two different things, carving a heart to look externally like a kidney does not make it a kidney.
I think it’s a valid question, and I don’t think you should be downvoted actually. Now, I hope you do read my answer.
The answer is that some components of gender are socially constructed — like what different genders wear, what roles they fill, and certain behaviors. However, there is also very likely a component of gender that is biological and doesn’t always manifest itself in your bodily form or sex organs, but in the brain.
We know from genetics that it’s common for mutations to occur. We also know that certain chemicals and hormones impact brain chemistry, especially during gestation. So, why is it so far fetched that how one thinks of one’s self in their mind might not align with their bodily characteristics?
Sure, on the whole, people who identify as masculine in their brains tend to have a penis and tend to be physically attracted to those who present outwardly as feminine and have vaginas. And those who identify as feminine tend have vaginas and tend to be physically attracted to those who present outwardly as masculine.
But, nature, genetics, and hormones can result in those three components - gender, sex, and sexual preference - having different combinations. Trans folks might have a physical body that is different from the gender they feel they are in their mind. They might feel relieved to bring these two things into alignment, and even to adopt some of the socially constructed components of a gender that they identify as in their mind.
We also know from the existence of gay and lesbian people that sexual preference does not always align with one’s sex or gender. It is possible to identify as a man, and to be attracted to men. It is possible to identify as a woman and be attracted to women. Why? Well, nature, genetics, and hormones can some times create people who have small differences from the average population.
That’s all it is and the existence of these types of people poses no real threat to you. Nor are their differences from your own a valid reason to deny them equal treatment under the law, nor privacy in the medical decisions they make to feel more like themselves.
I think their point is that once biology is involved it’s no longer a social construct.
I also think that people conflate sex and gender and it makes things unnecessarily confusing.
For sake of argument let’s stick with binary for now.
There are words that describe sex. There are words that describe gender. And there are words that can be used as a shortcut for a combination of both.
For example (and if you don’t like my example substitute your own words): a masculine female is often called a tomboy or described as butch.
TERFs probably feel that the term woman is a shortcut for feminine females, and that those who aren’t female but are feminine are not Champagne, they are sparkling wine. And it’s easy to see why someone would be insulted by that opinion. Strictly speaking, being told “you’re not a woman” isn’t necessarily an attack, or stating that you shouldn’t exist. But yes (obviously!) people with extreme views jump onto that bandwagon and are willing to kill/oppress to make everyone the same cuz they can’t handle weird people.
Yes, trans people are weird (queer means weird!). But weird isn’t bad, and people who think weird is bad are not people I would want to hang out with, even if they also happen to be trans. Pride is about pride: own your weirdness.
I appreciate the point you’re making, but I’m not entirely sure that on average slight differences indicates much of a biological component. Ie. trans or gay people having slight biochemical differences on average says nothing about any individual trans or gay person. Furthermore, there is very miniscule average difference between cis-AFAB and cis-AMAB brains so much so that I bet it would be impossible to find a sex difference between them for many.
There might be a biological component to sexuality or gender identity, there might not be- it doesn’t really matter. It should be enough to say, I don’t like how I look, I want surgery to correct that.
I think you’re trying to make an argument from a perspective of free will and rights — like if I one day wake up and just choose to change my gender then I shouldn’t need any scientific nor other basis to explain that decision. I don’t oppose the idea, necessarily, but I’m not sure it captures the full picture.
I have LGBTQ+ family and they describe it as something that is not a choice and that they knew from an early age that they identified this way. Even when I think of my own identity, it’s something I know about myself and not one I could choose to change on a whim.
Within the scope of the law, things that are perceived to be choices within one’s control are more likely to be regulated. It’s harder to justify regulating those components of ourselves that we inherit.
I don’t feel I could change the foods I like on a whim, that doesn’t mean there’s a biological component(for some dislikes there is though) to it. My boyfriend is gay and he admits he has no clue if he was born with it or not.
Within the scope of the law, things that are perceived to be choices within one’s control are more likely to be regulated. It’s harder to justify regulating those components of ourselves that we inherit.
I know this isn’t what you’re doing, but I feel some people use this as a justification to push something they know is unproven.
As far as I can tell, identity is cultural. Though you are implying certain identities are programmed into our brains via genetics which is not something I am aware of. Does everyone have an intrinsic sense of gender or even other facets of identity? I don’t know if I have this sense of gender, most of the time I don’t even feel like my body is me. It is merely the instrument I interact with the physical world with.
It’s not programmed by genetics, but how other people interact with you.
I have a similar lack of attachment to my gender for instance. That, my friend, is privilege. It means that my outward gender expression and the way I am treated for it usually match up to my inner expectations enough that I don’t experience friction. For some people, both cis and trans, gender is more important than it is to us. People have differing values and that’s what makes the world interesting.
Why does a social construct require surgery to fix?
Well, beauty is a social construct as well, and yet plastic surgery is a massive industry, with shifting trends as well.
Social construct does not mean entirely abstract, but in dialectic exchange with material reality.
This is probably one of the better points I have heard. Though the plastic surgery industry is pretty problematic on its own.
Sex isn’t gender, there are plenty of trans folks that never seek surgical conversion, body dysmorphia is a common condition among trans people but not inherent to being trans and, finally, fuck off.
You won’t get long with that final statement. Consider that such statement fuels the flame of people who are against trans, drag etc etc. You can clearly that the original commenter is willing to engage in discussion.
Surgery has no impact on sex and I was precise with the term I used.
Surgery doesn’t change gender. It changes sex.
Gender is a social construct, sex is anatomical.
Sex is immutable, you are aware that sex is more than the appearance of sex organs right?
Sex is a combination of genetic, hormonal, anatomical, skeletal, dermal, muscular, trichoic, and arguably neurological factors. Most of those things are to some degree malleable, and in any case their grouping under the construct “sex” is social. Sex IS a social construct. It was not written on the bones of the universe in permanent marker that there would be males and females. Sex is a correlation that humans noticed, connected, and gave a name to.
Perhaps you are instead thinking of genotype. Which yes, is largely immutable barring retroviruses and new technologies, but trans people have conclusively proven that genotype is not the same as phenotype.
By the way, biohackers have already started using CRISPR on themselves for fun.
It’s funny how you understand sex is more than genitals then claim it’s set in stone. It’s like 8 different things and we can change most of them.
Fine in the distant future when bioengineering allows one to shape shift down to the genetic level, one could change their sex, but we do not live in such a scifi future.
There are ppl born with both you ignorant tit
deleted by creator
That thing that’s more than biology you’re thinking of is the construct of gender. 🤦♂️
Nothing is immutable. Nothing is unchanging. Even the constant of the universe can be altered.
I am referring to all the other physiological factors. The appearance of an organ and the actual function are two different things, carving a heart to look externally like a kidney does not make it a kidney.
What’s the function?
I think it’s a valid question, and I don’t think you should be downvoted actually. Now, I hope you do read my answer.
The answer is that some components of gender are socially constructed — like what different genders wear, what roles they fill, and certain behaviors. However, there is also very likely a component of gender that is biological and doesn’t always manifest itself in your bodily form or sex organs, but in the brain.
We know from genetics that it’s common for mutations to occur. We also know that certain chemicals and hormones impact brain chemistry, especially during gestation. So, why is it so far fetched that how one thinks of one’s self in their mind might not align with their bodily characteristics?
Sure, on the whole, people who identify as masculine in their brains tend to have a penis and tend to be physically attracted to those who present outwardly as feminine and have vaginas. And those who identify as feminine tend have vaginas and tend to be physically attracted to those who present outwardly as masculine.
But, nature, genetics, and hormones can result in those three components - gender, sex, and sexual preference - having different combinations. Trans folks might have a physical body that is different from the gender they feel they are in their mind. They might feel relieved to bring these two things into alignment, and even to adopt some of the socially constructed components of a gender that they identify as in their mind.
We also know from the existence of gay and lesbian people that sexual preference does not always align with one’s sex or gender. It is possible to identify as a man, and to be attracted to men. It is possible to identify as a woman and be attracted to women. Why? Well, nature, genetics, and hormones can some times create people who have small differences from the average population.
That’s all it is and the existence of these types of people poses no real threat to you. Nor are their differences from your own a valid reason to deny them equal treatment under the law, nor privacy in the medical decisions they make to feel more like themselves.
I think their point is that once biology is involved it’s no longer a social construct.
I also think that people conflate sex and gender and it makes things unnecessarily confusing.
For sake of argument let’s stick with binary for now.
There are words that describe sex. There are words that describe gender. And there are words that can be used as a shortcut for a combination of both.
For example (and if you don’t like my example substitute your own words): a masculine female is often called a tomboy or described as butch.
TERFs probably feel that the term woman is a shortcut for feminine females, and that those who aren’t female but are feminine are not Champagne, they are sparkling wine. And it’s easy to see why someone would be insulted by that opinion. Strictly speaking, being told “you’re not a woman” isn’t necessarily an attack, or stating that you shouldn’t exist. But yes (obviously!) people with extreme views jump onto that bandwagon and are willing to kill/oppress to make everyone the same cuz they can’t handle weird people.
Yes, trans people are weird (queer means weird!). But weird isn’t bad, and people who think weird is bad are not people I would want to hang out with, even if they also happen to be trans. Pride is about pride: own your weirdness.
I appreciate the point you’re making, but I’m not entirely sure that on average slight differences indicates much of a biological component. Ie. trans or gay people having slight biochemical differences on average says nothing about any individual trans or gay person. Furthermore, there is very miniscule average difference between cis-AFAB and cis-AMAB brains so much so that I bet it would be impossible to find a sex difference between them for many.
There might be a biological component to sexuality or gender identity, there might not be- it doesn’t really matter. It should be enough to say, I don’t like how I look, I want surgery to correct that.
I think you’re trying to make an argument from a perspective of free will and rights — like if I one day wake up and just choose to change my gender then I shouldn’t need any scientific nor other basis to explain that decision. I don’t oppose the idea, necessarily, but I’m not sure it captures the full picture.
I have LGBTQ+ family and they describe it as something that is not a choice and that they knew from an early age that they identified this way. Even when I think of my own identity, it’s something I know about myself and not one I could choose to change on a whim.
Within the scope of the law, things that are perceived to be choices within one’s control are more likely to be regulated. It’s harder to justify regulating those components of ourselves that we inherit.
I don’t feel I could change the foods I like on a whim, that doesn’t mean there’s a biological component(for some dislikes there is though) to it. My boyfriend is gay and he admits he has no clue if he was born with it or not.
I know this isn’t what you’re doing, but I feel some people use this as a justification to push something they know is unproven.
Also would trans brain(?) Be considered a neurological condition?
As far as I can tell, identity is cultural. Though you are implying certain identities are programmed into our brains via genetics which is not something I am aware of. Does everyone have an intrinsic sense of gender or even other facets of identity? I don’t know if I have this sense of gender, most of the time I don’t even feel like my body is me. It is merely the instrument I interact with the physical world with.
It’s not programmed by genetics, but how other people interact with you.
I have a similar lack of attachment to my gender for instance. That, my friend, is privilege. It means that my outward gender expression and the way I am treated for it usually match up to my inner expectations enough that I don’t experience friction. For some people, both cis and trans, gender is more important than it is to us. People have differing values and that’s what makes the world interesting.
Surgery helps people fit into the social construct
Why not change the construct instead?
Have you tried being less transphobic? That’s probably a good first step
You realize you just literally asked, “Why can’t transphobes not be transphobic?”
How?
Since woke globalists push their ideology…
Enlighten us to what exactly is a woke globalist and an example of one
u r big dum
Oh, look, an antisemitic dog whistle and a complaint about people pushing an ideology. In one sentence? That’s fun.
I hope they didn’t sprain something before the mental gymnastics Olympics happen this year
BINGO! I got troll buzzword Bingo! Are we playing with the free space rule?
“Fuck your feelings”
— MAGA